Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (6 Viewers)

[UncleTrvlingJim]

So, it's obviously hard for me coming to this thread since my kid is a transitioning kid (going FtM) and it's clearly an emotional issue to me. There have been so many comments that make me want to lash out emotionally b/c while the focus here is on MtF, a lot of the issues they face are the same my kid is facing and quite frankly I will always side with my child over any one else. I've had to live through 3 suicide attempts, and multiple hospitalizations, and I guarantee you that is way worse than a kid disappointed that they didn't get to start on the varsity team (which I've had to do for a different kid) or place 5th instead of third in a track meet.

As I've said, at the pro level or adult level (over 18) I think the division of those who have gone through male puberty vs those who have not, is fair and makes a lot of sense. The focus at that level is clearly on winning, and not all the character building and good citizenship stuff that should be the focus of youth sports (including high school). The point of youth athletics is teaching kids how to compete, how to improve yourself, how to win and how to lose. How to face adversity. And to provide a healthy outlet.

I said earlier that if allowing trans-girls to compete with (note I said with not AGAINST) cis-girls created an environment that discouraged cis-girls from participating, then I would say it's a bad policy. @SaintInBucLand mentioned the problem his girls are facing. So I did look up the stats. In states that allowed trans girls to participate in high school athletics as girls, female participation rate increased or stayed the same (California has reported a 14 percent increase in female participation). In states that do not allow trans girls to participate, female participation has decreased on average. (https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/yrbs/data.htm)

This is of course correlation not causation. States that don't allow trans girls to compete tend to have other policies that are hostile to women or are regressive in general, or other factors might be causing the decline. The point though - for my concern, policies that allow trans girls to compete do not hamper female participation or access.

On the flip side, the reality I have to live every day is that youth who identify as trans have an astronomically high suicide rate. And the only, and I mean ONLY, thing that the community as a whole has identified as working to reduce that rate is acceptance. So, no, telling a trans girl she has a perfectly good boys team to participate on is not acceptable. Sport is supposed to be a great mental health outlet, and you are literally advocating the most damaging thing to that child, we'll only accept you as a boy, which I promise you what they hear is ("just go kill yourself now"). Whether that's what you mean or not, that 100% is what they hear.

So, yeah, with youth sports - I'll side with the most vulnerable in this circumstance.

 

[kizzy821]

@flygirl said

I watched the entire YouTube interview with the trans skater. The question i wish the interviewer had asked is, "Why do you think you should have the right to compete against biological women?"

That's literally my number one question. The first thing I would ask if given the chance.

They refuse to accept the disconnect between their body and their mind. And they expect everyone else to honor that malfunction as well.
---
It gives a whole new meaning to, "I think therefore I am."

 

[hockey2112]

"I identify as a trans woman"
"cool whatever, identify as a tree if you want"
"I indentify as a trans woman athlete"
"aw, hellz naw, you're a man"

I don't want to speak for kizzy, but I believe she is actually saying:

"I identify as a trans woman"
"cool whatever, identify as a tree if you want"
"I indentify as a trans woman athlete"
"While I respect your self-identity as a trans woman, your inherent biological advantages would introduce a physical advantage uncommon to your desired gender, thus un-leveling the playing field we have created for that gender to allow them a place to fairly compete against others of that gender."

It's not about their "sports-identity" (is that even a thing?) vs their "identity". Sport is a hobby, a skill, a profession. It is not a state of being.

Transgender individuals are real people. Even if you prefer to think it’s either not real or mental illness, these individuals like all individuals need love and empathy. It’s a really tough topic. I do think that some are using it as a competitive advantage loophole, but I think most just want to feel like they belong. I wish there was a more clear solution that doesn’t put one group of individuals at a disadvantage.

Absolutely! However, it seems that the disadvantage for women is a competitive one. We are debating inclusion within sports, which is an inherently competitive venture. Shouldn't we seek to preserve the competitive aspect of a competitive activity?

...since every male on this board could find a woman stronger, faster and or with more stamina than they have

"A" woman. Every male could find "a" woman stronger, faster, etc. How many women could find "innumerable" males who are stronger, faster, etc than they are?

This is a population that does not have (and almost certainly never will) enough participants to field much competition
how many trans track athletes would compete in seperate events at the Louisiana HS State championships?
or swimmers
how many could even fill out one basletball team to say nothing of enough for a tournament?

It appears the onus is on the trans individual(s) in this case, to either proceed with the options afforded to them, or to not participate. Why should the women bear the burden in the form of relinquishing the competitive advantage they may have over their fellow women?

but i'm putting more ethical weight behind the chance to participate (and accepting identity) than i am winning (and denying identity)

If this is the case, then it ends the point of all of the discussion on this thread, at least regarding competitive sport. This appears to be the base level of the entire discussion. If one is arguing for inclusion over competition, and the other is arguing for competition over inclusion, what more is there to say?

 

[hockey2112]

So, it's obviously hard for me coming to this thread since my kid is a transitioning kid (going FtM) and it's clearly an emotional issue to me. There have been so many comments that make me want to lash out emotionally b/c while the focus here is on MtF, a lot of the issues they face are the same my kid is facing and quite frankly I will always side with my child over any one else. I've had to live through 3 suicide attempts, and multiple hospitalizations, and I guarantee you that is way worse than a kid disappointed that they didn't get to start on the varsity team (which I've had to do for a different kid) or place 5th instead of third in a track meet.

As I've said, at the pro level or adult level (over 18) I think the division of those who have gone through male puberty vs those who have not, is fair and makes a lot of sense. The focus at that level is clearly on winning, and not all the character building and good citizenship stuff that should be the focus of youth sports (including high school). The point of youth athletics is teaching kids how to compete, how to improve yourself, how to win and how to lose. How to face adversity. And to provide a healthy outlet.

I said earlier that if allowing trans-girls to compete with (note I said with not AGAINST) cis-girls created an environment that discouraged cis-girls from participating, then I would say it's a bad policy. @SaintInBucLand mentioned the problem his girls are facing. So I did look up the stats. In states that allowed trans girls to participate in high school athletics as girls, female participation rate increased or stayed the same (California has reported a 14 percent increase in female participation). In states that do not allow trans girls to participate, female participation has decreased on average. (https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/yrbs/data.htm)

This is of course correlation not causation. States that don't allow trans girls to compete tend to have other policies that are hostile to women or are regressive in general, or other factors might be causing the decline. The point though - for my concern, policies that allow trans girls to compete do not hamper female participation or access.

On the flip side, the reality I have to live every day is that youth who identify as trans have an astronomically high suicide rate. And the only, and I mean ONLY, thing that the community as a whole has identified as working to reduce that rate is acceptance. So, no, telling a trans girl she has a perfectly good boys team to participate on is not acceptable. Sport is supposed to be a great mental health outlet, and you are literally advocating the most damaging thing to that child, we'll only accept you as a boy, which I promise you what they hear is ("just go kill yourself now"). Whether that's what you mean or not, that 100% is what they hear.

So, yeah, with youth sports - I'll side with the most vulnerable in this circumstance.

Most importantly, my heart goes out to you. I can't imagine how difficult that has been on you and your family.

I agree with you for the most part about youth sports. I am pretty sure many/most youth sports leagues are co-ed already, at least to a certain age. I recall playing soccer at Lafreniere with 3 or 4 girls on my team. I didn't begrudge them a spot on the team, nor do I begrudge the boys who currently play tennis with my daughter a spot on that "team". Two of my daughters played soccer with boys as well.

I suppose the next progression/question would be... at what age/ability/etc do we then split the boys and the trans girls from the girls? It can't be "at college", because things like scholarships would be at stake. It may also be unfair to do so "at high school", for those same later competitive and financial reasons. So is there an age limit? A grade level?

Taking that idea a step further, how would that split be accepted (or not) by the trans individuals? It seems like that would be an exceedingly difficult and emotionally-damaging incident. This sport (or at the very least the way in which choose to interact with that sport) that you have excelled at and love is now being taken from you. Damn...

 

[flygirl]

I swear, we have lost all common sense on this issue...the ncaa swimmer athlete who identified as male, chose to not undergo full testosterone treatments because she wanted to keep competing on the women's team, even after having her breasts removed, and calling herself a dude. Now why wouldn't "he" want to compete w his gender? Because he would lose. And we only have a problem with the trans women...no issues with trans men in sports. Have we lost our collective minds, if we think this is fair, or ok?

 

[Brandon13]

So, it's obviously hard for me coming to this thread since my kid is a transitioning kid (going FtM) and it's clearly an emotional issue to me. There have been so many comments that make me want to lash out emotionally b/c while the focus here is on MtF, a lot of the issues they face are the same my kid is facing and quite frankly I will always side with my child over any one else. I've had to live through 3 suicide attempts, and multiple hospitalizations, and I guarantee you that is way worse than a kid disappointed that they didn't get to start on the varsity team (which I've had to do for a different kid) or place 5th instead of third in a track meet.

As I've said, at the pro level or adult level (over 18) I think the division of those who have gone through male puberty vs those who have not, is fair and makes a lot of sense. The focus at that level is clearly on winning, and not all the character building and good citizenship stuff that should be the focus of youth sports (including high school). The point of youth athletics is teaching kids how to compete, how to improve yourself, how to win and how to lose. How to face adversity. And to provide a healthy outlet.

I said earlier that if allowing trans-girls to compete with (note I said with not AGAINST) cis-girls created an environment that discouraged cis-girls from participating, then I would say it's a bad policy. @SaintInBucLand mentioned the problem his girls are facing. So I did look up the stats. In states that allowed trans girls to participate in high school athletics as girls, female participation rate increased or stayed the same (California has reported a 14 percent increase in female participation). In states that do not allow trans girls to participate, female participation has decreased on average. (https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/yrbs/data.htm)

This is of course correlation not causation. States that don't allow trans girls to compete tend to have other policies that are hostile to women or are regressive in general, or other factors might be causing the decline. The point though - for my concern, policies that allow trans girls to compete do not hamper female participation or access.

On the flip side, the reality I have to live every day is that youth who identify as trans have an astronomically high suicide rate. And the only, and I mean ONLY, thing that the community as a whole has identified as working to reduce that rate is acceptance. So, no, telling a trans girl she has a perfectly good boys team to participate on is not acceptable. Sport is supposed to be a great mental health outlet, and you are literally advocating the most damaging thing to that child, we'll only accept you as a boy, which I promise you what they hear is ("just go kill yourself now"). Whether that's what you mean or not, that 100% is what they hear.

So, yeah, with youth sports - I'll side with the most vulnerable in this circumstance.

First just want to say I'm sorry your family has had to struggle through this and just in attempting to see or place myself into your shoes there I can definitely understand why sharp opinions on the topic can be cutting to a parent actually living the reality of it all. I think it is important to remember there are real people like you and your family dealing with things like this and it's not just the caricatured images residing in our heads.

From knowing you the little bit I do on here though I'm pretty confident in saying your child is lucky to have you as a father and I hope all goes as well as possible for you and your family moving forward.
..
I don't really have fully developed thoughts on this except for the adult/Lia Thomas situation and anything I've said in here was primarily with the Lia Thomas situation in mind. I agree with you that youth sports are primarily for building character, providing a healthy outlet, etc. and that 'winning' is not/should not be an important consideration. So then I do think it makes sense for youth sports to handle the issue differently than would college or professional sports.

High school is a tougher one for me because it does usually become more competitive at that level but I also appreciate why it's important to be as inclusive and accepting as is possible of high school aged trans kids. Still, it may need/have to be more of a case-by-case solution than anything else here as situations wherein a fully developed biological male is dominating biological females in the girl's/women's division will likely often be subject to controversy and scrutiny, especially coming from the female competitors and their parents.

 

[mjcouvi]

So, it's obviously hard for me coming to this thread since my kid is a transitioning kid (going FtM) and it's clearly an emotional issue to me. There have been so many comments that make me want to lash out emotionally b/c while the focus here is on MtF, a lot of the issues they face are the same my kid is facing and quite frankly I will always side with my child over any one else. I've had to live through 3 suicide attempts, and multiple hospitalizations, and I guarantee you that is way worse than a kid disappointed that they didn't get to start on the varsity team (which I've had to do for a different kid) or place 5th instead of third in a track meet.

As I've said, at the pro level or adult level (over 18) I think the division of those who have gone through male puberty vs those who have not, is fair and makes a lot of sense. The focus at that level is clearly on winning, and not all the character building and good citizenship stuff that should be the focus of youth sports (including high school). The point of youth athletics is teaching kids how to compete, how to improve yourself, how to win and how to lose. How to face adversity. And to provide a healthy outlet.

I said earlier that if allowing trans-girls to compete with (note I said with not AGAINST) cis-girls created an environment that discouraged cis-girls from participating, then I would say it's a bad policy. @SaintInBucLand mentioned the problem his girls are facing. So I did look up the stats. In states that allowed trans girls to participate in high school athletics as girls, female participation rate increased or stayed the same (California has reported a 14 percent increase in female participation). In states that do not allow trans girls to participate, female participation has decreased on average. (https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/yrbs/data.htm)

This is of course correlation not causation. States that don't allow trans girls to compete tend to have other policies that are hostile to women or are regressive in general, or other factors might be causing the decline. The point though - for my concern, policies that allow trans girls to compete do not hamper female participation or access.

On the flip side, the reality I have to live every day is that youth who identify as trans have an astronomically high suicide rate. And the only, and I mean ONLY, thing that the community as a whole has identified as working to reduce that rate is acceptance. So, no, telling a trans girl she has a perfectly good boys team to participate on is not acceptable. Sport is supposed to be a great mental health outlet, and you are literally advocating the most damaging thing to that child, we'll only accept you as a boy, which I promise you what they hear is ("just go kill yourself now"). Whether that's what you mean or not, that 100% is what they hear.

So, yeah, with youth sports - I'll side with the most vulnerable in this circumstance.

Wow, you have my sympathy.

It’s all a matter of framing this though, isn’t it?

That we live in a world where we can contemplate this, well, that’s extraordinary. I don’t have much interest in the outcome but the trajectory of acceptance is awesome.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Most importantly, my heart goes out to you. I can't imagine how difficult that has been on you and your family.

I agree with you for the most part about youth sports. I am pretty sure many/most youth sports leagues are co-ed already, at least to a certain age. I recall playing soccer at Lafreniere with 3 or 4 girls on my team. I didn't begrudge them a spot on the team, nor do I begrudge the boys who currently play tennis with my daughter a spot on that "team". Two of my daughters played soccer with boys as well.

I suppose the next progression/question would be... at what age/ability/etc do we then split the boys and the trans girls from the girls? It can't be "at college", because things like scholarships would be at stake. It may also be unfair to do so "at high school", for those same later competitive and financial reasons. So is there an age limit? A grade level?

Taking that idea a step further, how would that split be accepted (or not) by the trans individuals? It seems like that would be an exceedingly difficult and emotionally-damaging incident. This sport (or at the very least the way in which choose to interact with that sport) that you have excelled at and love is now being taken from you. Damn...

Thanks. Life is getting better now - we've had a year with no self harm or attempted suicide, and he's even well enough to go to a sleep away immersion language camp for 2 weeks (a whole different set of worries for my wife and I). It is crazy how bad mental health services are in this country - first is the cost and lack of insurance reimbursement. We've probably paid about $30K a year out of pocket for 3 years now. And then there is still so little understanding of mental health -- basically therapists and psychiatrists are basically just trying things that have a decent probability of success based on other people, but they still have tweak things and try different things. It's super frustrating, particularly for someone like me who is an engineer.

As far as your question goes, again, my main concern is providing a supportive environment for children to get to adulthood as a mentally healthy functioning adult. For the most part if kids have a good environment growing up, dealing with disappointment gets easier and is less damaging when they're adults (it might not ever be perfect for those suffering mental illness and dysphoria, but if they've had a supportive environment growing up, they should have learned good coping skills). So I don't see why you can't have a hard separation at 18 for those who have gone through male puberty and those who have not (if a trans girl was able to get help early enough and has never gone through male puberty, then I think she should be allowed to compete in women's sports, but I also have less of a dog in that fight). I don't know why scholarships being at stake would make a difference. If the NCAA decides to make that rule to only allow women who have never gone through male puberty, then a trans girl who didn't have any interventions until 16 would be competing on her high school's soccer team, but would not be offered any scholarships. As I've said before, I find the obsession with sports scholarships to be unhealthy at times, and I don't think a girl's focus should be on a scholarship - so I don't think it's terrible if a trans girl doesn't get a scholarship.

I'm sure it will be very difficult for a tran girl to get excluded at the college level, but if we as a society have done our job right, then she'll be able to deal with it. But part of doing that job right is providing a supportive environment when she's a child. Most colleges have tons of co-ed opportunities which do not exist in most high school environments.

Again this is shaped a bit by my own experience as a college athlete (that sounds pretentious - I was a college rower, not one of the big sports) and then as a youth coach -- there are way too many parents pinning hopes on sports glory on their kids. The best assumption is your kid is not going to get a scholarship. Your kid will not play pro. If you want to get that invested in sports without expectation of getting scholarships or anything else out of it -- great. But if you're really focused on getting that scholarship it often appears unhealthy to me. This goes for trans kids as well.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I swear, we have lost all common sense on this issue...the ncaa swimmer athlete who identified as male, chose to not undergo full testosterone treatments because she wanted to keep competing on the women's team, even after having her breasts removed, and calling herself a dude. Now why wouldn't "he" want to compete w his gender? Because he would lose. And we only have a problem with the trans women...no issues with trans men in sports. Have we lost our collective minds, if we think this is fair, or ok?

Which person is this? The only one trans male swimmer I know if is Schuyler Bailar who transitioned and is swimming on the men's team at Harvard. And is doing great from what I can tell.

It's been mentioned here before, but there was Mack Beggs who is a trans male wrestler who petitioned to wrestle with the boys in high school but was forced to wrestle with women, so he became the women's state champ as a trans male wrestler.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Which person is this? The only one trans male swimmer I know if is Schuyler Bailar who transitioned and is swimming on the men's team at Harvard. And is doing great from what I can tell.

It's been mentioned here before, but there was Mack Beggs who is a trans male wrestler who petitioned to wrestle with the boys in high school but was forced to wrestle with women, so he became the women's state champ as a trans male wrestler.

OK - found the case I think you're referring to -- Iszac Henig who has only transitioned socially. Interestingly enough he beat Lia Thomas in the 100m freestyle.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

High school is a tougher one for me because it does usually become more competitive at that level but I also appreciate why it's important to be as inclusive and accepting as is possible of high school aged trans kids. Still, it may need/have to be more of a case-by-case solution than anything else here as situations wherein a fully developed biological male is dominating biological females in the girl's/women's division will likely often be subject to controversy and scrutiny, especially coming from the female competitors and their parents.

So basically I try to keep in mind why I support public education and what the purpose of my tax dollars should be. I think the goal of tax supported public education (of which high school sports is a part) is to raise functioning well adjusted adults who are ready to make contributions to society. I am not paying tax dollars so that 2 percent of high school kids can get a college scholarship (I'm happy when they do, but that isn't the goal for me). I'm paying tax dollars to get kids to be decent human beings who can be a net contributor to society. I absolutely think sports can be a part of that.

And I think giving probably one of biggest at risk groups there is a healthy outlet to support them, I think it's worth the trade-off.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

And I will say again that I totally get the confusion on the issue, or the resistance to say a trans girl is a "real" girl and so on. As I've said before, I'm an engineer and I like definitions and specifications, and right now the whole trans community does not provide a great definition of what it means to be a man or woman, other than personal definitions and feelings, which feels inadequate to me.

That being said, biological sex is way more complicated than just penis and vagina, or x and y chromosome. There are conditions where the "male" gene (the SRY gene) is lacking in a person with the Y chromosome. Or is present in a person with a XX chromosome. There are case like my kid where testosterone levels are very, very high in a natal female, so that he's almost hormonally male. And so on.

We all start out as female until a part of us transition to male when our genes start signalling to start building certain organs, etc. It certainly doesn't seem to be a stretch that some only partially transition, and some XX chromosome people have too much testosterone in the environment from the mother who start a very slight transition.

I don't think there's a clean answer.

 

[Infoman]

This battle is frankly something we as a society need to "shelve" for the moment.
Yes it is important and needs to be discussed. No there is no easy solution... but it is being fought by two disadvantaged groups, pitting them against eachother when solidarity is needed. The powers that be are hard at work taking the rights away from both of them. From all of us.

It is going to take all the voices of the disadvantaged and their allies among the advantaged to fight to keep us from backsliding as a society.

Yes there will be legitimate issues between us... but those will be used as wedges to keep us fighting amongst ourselves while our rights and representation are eroded.

One thing I have seen throughout this thread is even disagreeing on details... we all want people of all stripes to have rights, representation, respect, and fair treatment. We disagree on the details, but if we continue to let that consume our attention while the very basis of our rights are being destroyed, we are going to find the details of little consequence.

When Sally has no right to their body, or contraception, and T-Sally has no right to live as their gender, when Steve cannot marry who they love independent of gender, when reinstituted sodomy laws make private sexual preference a crime... all of this will be moot.

I am not in a disadvantaged group but I am an ally... I also have a biological daughter with they/them identity who is bisexual and both my children are of mixed descent. Even though I have been an ally long before their birth, 20+ years, I have allowed things like economic concerns to sway me into siding with forces who have not always been liberty minded because I viewed rights, once defined as constitutional, as immutable. Clearly I was mistaken.

I know many who are not allies though, both those who are in the power structure... and those who are deluded into believing they are saving the nation by religous or economic dogmatic doomsayers. Moved to blind idolotry and convinced that anyone who disagrees with the demagogues they follow, are bent on their destruction.

They are united on single threads... but those single threads bring them into lockstep on a myriad of issues, even ones they might oppose individually... deluded and blinded to the destruction they wreak to the fabric of freedom and the survival of the republic or not they have conviction and focus, decades of cultural messaging brought this about.

They stand united, but they are NOT the majority... the majority, who wants liberty, justice, opportunity, and fairness for all, is not united. Our "big tent" is a battleground". Our infighting over the minutiae, villifying one another over disagreements, all or nothing arguments making enenimies of allies... has put that liberty at risk, our nation at risk.

The sanctity of individual rights is the single thread that should unite us. It is the single most important Ideal our nation holds, and though it has not always been universally and fairly applied... we have made hard fought, though sometimes glacial, progress. That progress is eroding, we are backsliding... and are poised to do so at an alarming rate. We need to put aside our differences, not alienate potential allies... even those who may who we know have been deluded into opposing liberty that we know are fair minded... instead of attacking them for being part of the problem we need show them they can be part of the solution. We have a single thread issue worth eschewing all other concerns, perhaps the only issue sufficiently important to do so.

If any individual can be denied their rights, then no ones rights are secure. No one.

I dream of a nation with civil political discourse even on impassioned issues. A nation where understanding, finding common ground, and comprimise, which are necessary for a healthy nation and good governance, are norms, ... but we are facing extremism, a cult that has grown right in front of us, objective pleas and reason are drowned out by dogma in the echo chamber that have become timples to false idols.

We are the (fractured) majority, but if we do not see the threat and the urgent need to act as a unified majority... we will find our numbers dwindling as the liberty we hold dear is villified, criminilized, marginilized... and as societal norms shift, the message of the echo chamber will become the prevalant message of our society... taught in schools, as the theme in everything from the news, to commercials, to kids cartoons. Thus shifting the majorty from a democratic/liberty mindset to a theocratic/autocracy, and our nation will be lost forever.

This, is the greatest threat our republic has faced since the Civil War. Not any world war, or cold war... not the threat of nuclear annilation... we have have had periods where we lacked liberty for women, different races, sexual orientation, etc, but we have climbed, struggled, fought, and grown...this is the closest we have been to the fall of liberty.

Sorry for the rambling rant... I could go forever on this... but I will stop there.

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum... and while I believe the sentiment here is 100% spot on... You left out one fact. There is not 1... but 2 extremists political cults in this country that are equally responsible for this. Both equally and oppositely have become poisonous echo chambers that are destroying the fabric of our democratic republic, and eroding our freedoms. Thus causing the fracture you describe. There is literally an Ocean of common ground and sense between the 2, if people would just (as you said) Stand United on our common goals, instead of become single issue enemies on every topic, and fancy themselves political warriors. Other than that... you are on the money. Well said.

 

[kizzy821]

And I will say again that I totally get the confusion on the issue, or the resistance to say a trans girl is a "real" girl and so on. As I've said before, I'm an engineer and I like definitions and specifications, and right now the whole trans community does not provide a great definition of what it means to be a man or woman, other than personal definitions and feelings, which feels inadequate to me.

That being said, biological sex is way more complicated than just penis and vagina, or x and y chromosome....

The video that flygirl posted touches on this. I don't know how many people cosign his sentiments. But he says that he knows he'll never be a woman. But he likes being "pretty and cute." And he associates that with being female.

His testosterone levels were way off the required amount to qualify as a trans women athlete (290 units vs the required 10).

And since he doesn't think he'll ever be able to get it that low, his focus is on having the requirements changed.

They're already exponentially higher than regular women but since he can't achieve them...

He went on to say transitioning shouldn't be about hormones and genitalia. It's more about "decisions and feelings."

"You can't ask an elite, professional athlete to compromise their health [by taking hormones]."

I don’t know how prevalent that POV is, but it's the kind of thing legislation, even if premature, can help to mitigate.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

The video that flygirl posted touches on this. I don't know how many people cosign his sentiments. But he says that he knows he'll never be a woman. But he likes being "pretty and cute." And he associates that with being female.

His testosterone levels were way off the required amount to qualify as a trans women athlete (290 units vs the required 10).

And since he doesn't think he'll ever be able to get it that low, his focus is on having the requirements changed.

They're already exponentially higher than regular women but since he can't achieve them...

He went on to say transitioning shouldn't be about hormones and genitalia. It's more about "decisions and feelings."

"You can't ask an elite, professional athlete to compromise their health [by taking hormones]."

I don’t know how prevalent that POV is, but it's the kind of thing legislation, even if premature, can help to mitigate.

So, my understanding of that video is for adult athletics, which I'm not that concerned about. My basic position on adult competitive leagues (where money is at stake), is that the people who make up that league should decide who participates in that league. So, for a women's league, the women in that league should decide who participates. I think a fair division is for those who have been through male puberty and those who have not. But I don't think having the government legislate private sports leagues is particularly great either.

At the kid level, it is 100% about participation and raising healthy adults. From what I've seen - including trans athletes does not hurt female athletic participation and excluding trans athletes increases suicide rates and overall dysfunction. So, it seems pretty clear to me they should be included.