Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (7 Viewers)

[UncleTrvlingJim]

You just said if I/we don't accept them into these spaces, it means I/we want them to die.

No, immediately after I presented why I think allowing trans girls to compete as girls in youth sports, and why I didn't believe it hurt cis girls, your reply was that you were inspired to do the opposite of what I was saying and that trans kids committing suicide was not your problem. You didn't say that I was wrong in it helping trans youth. You didn't say I was wrong in it not hurting cis girls. You just said you were inspired to do exactly what I said would make it harder for trans girls to mature into healthy responsible adults. Again, directly said what my concern is and why you said you were inspired to do the opposite (ie, make it harder for trans girls to find acceptance - that is the opposite of what I was seeking). You provide no alternatives or countering facts or figures

To which I responded you'd rather see a trans kid die as long as none of them get a girl trophy. Is that wrong? Is that not your stance?

Basically scenario 1 - trans girls have complete acceptance in all aspects of youth life. Trans girls win 3% of the trophies. 12% of trans girls attempt suicide. 50% of those suicides are successful.

Scenario 2 - trans girls do not have complete acceptance. Cis girls win 100% of the trophies. 20% of trans girls attempt suicide and 50% are successful (current rate)

I understood you to say that scenario 2 is better than scenario 1. Is that not correct or incomplete? Because I've asked over and over again to show me how having trans girls compete harms cis girls, and the only thing you've said is you just a "real" girl to win. Nothing to do with their mental health or the values of competitive sports. Just so long as they get their shiny trophy.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I mean would it help if I had my wife join in? She thinks I'm insane for arguing against strangers on the internet, but I've had her read all my comments and I'm trying to vet them through her... she is probably angrier than I am. I'm not sure that makes a difference when talking about youth sports though.

 

[Crzycjunx76]

Where women get to hear all about how horrible and difficult it is for the boys and men pretending to be women.

Save it.

I did not want to re-enter this argument. It is tantamount to an argument between siblings over who is being beaten harder by their abusive parent.

The above is a gross mis-characterization.

As I have said before I have a child who is biologically female, but uses they/them pronouns. They do not think they are male, they acknowledge that they are biologically female and dont want to change that. They just find the societal norms and expectations of being she/her to not fit who they are as a person and gain some seperation from them by making their identity known. Some gender identity goes a little further than that... but still not to the point of transitioning.

You say pretending it sounds like you mean transvestite or cross dresser... who dress up to look like women but are otherwise men.

Trans is entirley different. These are people that to the core of their being believe they were born the wrong sex. They are trying to TRANSition as far as is medically possible into being the correct one. I believe there are strict psylogical screenings required, at least among minors, to weed out anyone who might be rebelling, acting out of immaturity, mentally ill to the point of not understanding, etc. Transitioning is brutal, hormones, surgeries, rejection from close established frinds and family. This is not done on a whim as you said earlier... and a MtF is not a Man, they are a trans-Female. They know they will never completely be female by sex, and as such they are joining a group that is even more marginilized, and excluded by society than women.

They are not chosing to go from advantaged to marginilized, villified, and discriminated against. They are trying to live as close to who they are as is possible.

Yes barring major medical advances they will never be female by sex, and that leads to the competitive issues in this thread. It is an issue that is nuanced and will require nuanced and interative solutions. For Trans persons there are a number of other issues where the reality of sex limits truly being who they are...many are inescapable, but to call them "men pretending to be women" is as dismissive and biggoted as someone saying "women need to stop pretending to be professional and get back to homemaking". It is the words I would expect from one who cheered the Alito and Thomas opinions... not one who has been irrevocably harmed by them.

The whole damn argument, the bigotry and hate being leveled at one another is nothing but counter productive. While you are leveling you ire at another marginilized group, nearly 100 years of hard fought gains for all the disadvantaged is being pulled out from beneith you.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

The problem is that you are including high school sports as youth sports and trans girls can and will take away scholarship opportunities from cis girls in competitive high school sports.

What scholarship oppportunities when I've said they shouldn't compete as women at the college level if they've gone through male puberty? Those scholarships are still there for those who've never gone through male puberty.

 

[kizzy821]

I get that and have been following along as best I can. I think everyone has valid concerns. I think women are all too often treated unfairly and have faced situations I haven't had to think a lot about. Trans people have their own struggles and most women I imagine do understand and are empathetic to their plight.

That said, through women's suffrage, Title IX, narrowing the gender pay gap, and equality in competitive sports, I get being sensitive about having fairness in women’s sports. That's been part of the struggle. I tend to agree that trans participating in women's competitive sports isn't ideal and women should feel secure in knowing they'll be protected from being taken advantage of.

I think we need to find a way to have something for trans people that doesn't take opportunities away from women, and at the same time doesn't create animosity against trans individuals. I don't know if there are enough of them to create their own sports teams, but that I think would be the ideal scenario.

Absolutely. I get being different. I understand when your outsides don't seem to match your insides. I'm always the misfit in any group.

Look at some of my posts here. Do they indicate that I'm a scrawny, Black chick from the projects?

So I get it. I empathize. I identify.

But being different doesn't make you special. It might sound like it should, but it doesn't.

Being marginalized doesn't mean that you have NO advantages or privileges.

(I have a privilege over my brother when being stopped by the police).

So you have to operate within parameters and boundaries just like everyone else.

That's what this boils down to for me: Your trans women-ness doesn't move me enough to overlook the advantage that comes with it.

I can see your plight while also seeing that of your teammates - especially if they're women.

...And I choose to support your teammates and not you.

 

[hockey2112]

I don't know why scholarships being at stake would make a difference. If the NCAA decides to make that rule to only allow women who have never gone through male puberty, then a trans girl who didn't have any interventions until 16 would be competing on her high school's soccer team, but would not be offered any scholarships.

What scholarship oppportunities when I've said they shouldn't compete as women at the college level if they've gone through male puberty? Those scholarships are still there for those who've never gone through male puberty.

I am very happy to hear about your recent successes with your child, and I hope they continue!

I not looking at the scholarship issue from the "trans girl takes the girl's scholarship" end of things, for the most part. I am more so looking at it from the perspective of lack of opportunity/lost opportunity for the girl due to that roster/starting spot in high school being occupied by a trans girl, thus excluding the girl from the opportunity to even be seen/considered for a scholarship. For example, if the trans girl is the starting setter or hitter on the girls volleyball team, and the girl who would have started and excelled otherwise doesn't receive that opportunity and therefore "doesn't exist" as far as a scout/scholarship is concerned.

 

[kizzy821]

No, immediately after I presented why I think allowing trans girls to compete as girls in youth sports, and why I didn't believe it hurt cis girls, your reply was that you were inspired to do the opposite of what I was saying and that trans kids committing suicide was not your problem. You didn't say that I was wrong in it helping trans youth. You didn't say I was wrong in it not hurting cis girls. You just said you were inspired to do exactly what I said would make it harder for trans girls to mature into healthy responsible adults. Again, directly said what my concern is and why you said you were inspired to do the opposite (ie, make it harder for trans girls to find acceptance - that is the opposite of what I was seeking). You provide no alternatives or countering facts or figures

To which I responded you'd rather see a trans kid die as long as none of them get a girl trophy. Is that wrong? Is that not your stance?

Basically scenario 1 - trans girls have complete acceptance in all aspects of youth life. Trans girls win 3% of the trophies. 12% of trans girls attempt suicide. 50% of those suicides are successful.

Scenario 2 - trans girls do not have complete acceptance. Cis girls win 100% of the trophies. 20% of trans girls attempt suicide and 50% are successful (current rate)

I understood you to say that scenario 2 is better than scenario 1. Is that not correct or incomplete? Because I've asked over and over again to show me how having trans girls compete harms cis girls, and the only thing you've said is you just a "real" girl to win. Nothing to do with their mental health or the values of competitive sports. Just so long as they get their shiny trophy.

You know what... If you think I want trans kids to die, then believe it. Knock yourself out.

In regard to why I don't want trans girls competing with real girls - it's because I don't want them to have a chance to win over real girls. That will never change.

Me quoting you was because you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

On the one hand you say if we don't accept them as refugees in our spaces, then we want them to die. A little while later you say we don't have to accept them, but it would help if we could.

What the "pro" side declares, changes everyday (every hour).

 

[kizzy821]

I did not want to re-enter this argument. It is tantamount to an argument between siblings over who is being beaten harder by their abusive parent.

The above is a gross mis-characterization.

As I have said before I have a child who is biologically female, but uses they/them pronouns. They do not think they are male, they acknowledge that they are biologically female and dont want to change that. They just find the societal norms and expectations of being she/her to not fit who they are as a person and gain some seperation from them by making their identity known. Some gender identity goes a little further than that... but still not to the point of transitioning.

You say pretending it sounds like you mean transvestite or cross dresser... who dress up to look like women but are otherwise men.

Trans is entirley different. These are people that to the core of their being believe they were born the wrong sex. They are trying to TRANSition as far as is medically possible into being the correct one. I believe there are strict psylogical screenings required, at least among minors, to weed out anyone who might be rebelling, acting out of immaturity, mentally ill to the point of not understanding, etc. Transitioning is brutal, hormones, surgeries, rejection from close established frinds and family. This is not done on a whim as you said earlier... and a MtF is not a Man, they are a trans-Female. They know they will never completely be female by sex, and as such they are joining a group that is even more marginilized, and excluded by society than women.

They are not chosing to go from advantaged to marginilized, villified, and discriminated against. They are trying to live as close to who they are as is possible.

Yes barring major medical advances they will never be female by sex, and that leads to the competitive issues in this thread. It is an issue that is nuanced and will require nuanced and interative solutions. For Trans persons there are a number of other issues where the reality of sex limits truly being who they are...many are inescapable, but to call them "men pretending to be women" is as dismissive and biggoted as someone saying "women need to stop pretending to be professional and get back to homemaking". It is the words I would expect from one who cheered the Alito and Thomas opinions... not one who has been irrevocably harmed by them.

The whole damn argument, the bigotry and hate being leveled at one another is nothing but counter productive. While you are leveling you ire at another marginilized group, nearly 100 years of hard fought gains for all the disadvantaged is being pulled out from beneith you.

If you're a dude, then I don't care what you think about a woman's struggle, but thanks for sharing.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

What scholarship oppportunities when I've said they shouldn't compete as women at the college level if they've gone through male puberty? Those scholarships are still there for those who've never gone through male puberty.

Because of exactly how my daughter was pushed out of being able to compete competitively at all at the high school level. Trans girls in high school sports will push cis girls out of even starting positions and will never be able to showcase their talents to recruiters.

I don't have a problem at all with fully participatory sports for youth 14 and under, but once you enter high school sports it has very real impacts because of the biological advantage.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

I am a white woman. A disenfranchised group.

Do I get to join the Black Panthers because I identify with them? Nope. However I might be able to coordinate a friendly softball game with my women’s group & them.

Trans girls aren’t biological women. Why the fork can’t we have our own spaces????

After all we are being forced to keep birthing more men who hate us & don’t protect us and keep forcing us to take one for the team. Jesus Capitalist Christ!

 

[DaveXA]

I'm not sure if it's been suggested in the thread, but would it be worth considering having trans on a team, practicing, scrimmaging and supporting the team, but not actually participating in competitions with other schools? That way they get to participate to some degree, but not take away any competitive spots for cis women?

 

[kizzy821]

I am a white woman. A disenfranchised group.

Do I get to join the Black Panthers because I identify with them? Nope. However I might be able to coordinate a friendly softball game with my women’s group & them.

Trans girls aren’t biological women. Why the fork can’t we have our own spaces????

After all we are being forced to keep birthing more men who hate us & don’t protect us and keep forcing us to take one for the team. Jesus Capitalist Christ!

Tell them you need refuge and see what they say.

If they turn you down, go on the news and complain about reverse racism.

Bring some statistics with you.

And be sure to repeat over and over that you're the only one who's asking to join, so what's the big deal.

(I'll be waiting for you in the getaway car)

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

I'm not sure if it's been suggested in the thread, but would it be worth considering having trans on a team, practicing, scrimmaging and supporting the team, but not actually participating in competitions with other schools? That way they get to participate to some degree, but not take away any competitive spots for cis women?

Yes. I said that as well as I think Rajncajun

 

[DaveXA]

Tell them you need refuge and see what they say.

If they turn you down, go on the news and complain about reverse racism.

Bring some statistics with you.

And be sure to repeat over and over that you're the only one who's asking to join, so what's the big deal.

(I'll be waiting for you in the getaway car)

 

[triumph]

I'm not sure if it's been suggested in the thread, but would it be worth considering having trans on a team, practicing, scrimmaging and supporting the team, but not actually participating in competitions with other schools? That way they get to participate to some degree, but not take away any competitive spots for cis women?

I don't think it's worth it.

I agree with UTJ that in the professional divisions, the governing bodies make whatever rules they want.

With amateur levels, if kept to 2 classifications, you'd have an open division and cis-Women's group. And i think the former group is what we have now for the most part, because we do have instances where women athletes compete with men. It's just labelled as "Men's".