Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (7 Viewers)

[SystemShock]

if you can demonstrate that there is ambiguity about the way the earth spins on its axis and then orbits the sun, then i will cede his rhetorical point
he's trying to make black & white and issue/idea that has ambiguity smeared all over it
so point not ceded

That made no sense whatsoever and didn't come even remotely close to address the point, let alone counter it.

 

[SystemShock]

and I would say that if we are talking about "fairness" - is it fair that someone has to compete against Phelps when his body allows it to do more because he doesn't suffer from lactic acid stress and muscle fatigue as other people in the pool?

XY's vs XY's is another discussion. We are talking about XY's vs XX's.

Is it fair that someone has to race against Semena when her body allows it to perform better because it produces more testosterone?

Well, the OP is about transgender athletes, so if you think Semenya is an XY transgender who identifies as an XX, I guess Semenya could be included in the discussion, but since she doesn't (AFAIK)... but anyway, as far as Semenya goes, no, it is not fair when testosterone is produced at such a high level, when testosterone levels are so strictly monitored among women.

Is this now a discussion of what's better? Testosterone empowerment or lactic acid reduction?

As far as I can tell, the discussion is about XY's being allowed to compete against XX's because XY's identify their gender as female and the inherent unfairness in it. All my comments have been framed within that premise.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

That made no sense whatsoever and didn't come even remotely close to address the point, let alone counter it.

time (and size) have universally agreed upon standards (even if they have different systems)
Flip has no basis to identify as a 12 yr old if he has spent 17 years on this planet (guessing)
he also has no basis to identify as a 500 lb person or a 9ft tall person

if he wants to identify as a size 12 dress size (but is really a size 16) there's wiggle room there bc there is no standard measurement

having a penis is not the sole identifying trait for a type of gender
having a penis also does not provide competitive advantage across the board

 

[rajncajn]

and I would say that if we are talking about "fairness" - is it fair that someone has to compete against Phelps when his body allows it to do more because he doesn't suffer from lactic acid stress and muscle fatigue as other people in the pool? Is it fair that someone has to race against Semena when her body allows it to perform better because it produces more testosterone?

Fairness, to me, has to do with naturally occurring averages and potential. If a person must artificially modify their body in order to bring them more in line with others of the sex that they are competing against then that is not fair because they still hold naturally occurring average advantages that are inherent and/or exclusive to their birth gender. Whether or not that individual possesses those advantages or has developed them makes no difference because then you are looking at a multitude of factors for each individual in order to try to decide who they should compete against. Then where or even how do we decide the cutoff is for each class? 'Phelps can't compete against other men because he has these advantages.' Well, ok, there's no one else that that has those particular advantages so who then can he compete against? But then there are swimmers that have advantages that he does not possess that allows them to compete with him on a more level playing field, so how does that weigh in? But all those advantages/disadvantages are naturally occurring or physically (not artificially) developed and at their base level, these male swimmers all have the same average potential that is inherent to their birth gender.

With people like Phelps, his advantage is naturally occurring. He didn't gain that advantage by artificially enhancing his body. In that sense, a woman shouldn't be allowed to load up on testosterone in order to be able to compete with men just like a man shouldn't be able to artificially modify his gender then compete with women. Even though the man is possibly inhibiting his body, it's still artificially gaining an advantage against his competition because he's drastically changing the level of competition and he still possesses naturally occurring advantages that the competition cannot.

 

[SystemShock]

time (and size) have universally agreed upon standards (even if they have different systems)
Flip has no basis to identify as a 12 yr old if he has spent 17 years on this planet (guessing)
he also has no basis to identify as a 500 lb person or a 9ft tall person

And what's the difference when you are talking about XX's and XY's? I'd say XX and XY qualifies as agreed upon physical standards, with some rare exceptions.

What's the basis for an XY to identify as an XX? Obviously, is not physical characteristics/measures.

if he wants to identify as a size 12 dress size (but is really a size 16) there's wiggle room there bc there is no standard measurement

Not really, that dress is going to be awfully tight, probably won't even be able to zip it up.

having a penis is not the sole identifying trait for a type of gender

That's not what we are talking about. I don't really care what anyone identifies as. You can identify as a golden retriever for all I care... but I don't think Westminster will allow you to enter the sporting group competition.

having a penis also does not provide competitive advantage across the board

It does, if the person with the naturally obtained penis is competing against a person with a naturally obtained vagina.

 

[RazorOye]

Fairness, to me, has to do with naturally occurring averages and potential. If a person must artificially modify their body in order to bring them more in line with others of the sex that they are competing against then that is not fair because they still hold naturally occurring average advantages that are inherent and/or exclusive to their birth gender.

With people like Phelps, his advantage is naturally occurring. He didn't gain that advantage by artificially enhancing his body.

and that's exactly the comparison I'm trying to establish. As I understand Caster Semenya's case, you'd agree that she falls under the same umbrella as Phelps - naturally occurring, without artificial modification. I think this is a totally reasonable take.

I'm not saying Phelps should not compete. Never said it, never thought it, just to be clear. I'm asking that if you think Phelps should be able to compete without submitting to some sort of body chemistry alteration so that his lactic acid generation is accelerated to levels commensurate with other swimmers, then should we consider extending the same to Semenya?

 

[SystemShock]

and that's exactly the comparison I'm trying to establish. As I understand Caster Semenya's case, you'd agree that she falls under the same umbrella as Phelps - naturally occurring, without artificial modification. I think this is a totally reasonable take.

I'm not saying Phelps should not compete. Never said it, never thought it, just to be clear. I'm asking that if you think Phelps should be able to compete without submitting to some sort of body chemistry alteration so that his lactic acid generation is accelerated to levels commensurate with other swimmers, then should we consider extending the same to Semenya?

Ok, so if you want to talk about XX's competing against XX's and/or XY's competing against XY's and how naturally occurring physiological factors affect competition among them, or even compare Phelps' case with Semenya's case, perhaps you'd like to start a thread on that subject.

This thread is about XY's competing againts XX's and the factors which affect said competition.

I guess you think that cases involving naturally occurring abnormal factors in athletes (Phelps, Semenya) when competing against their chromosomal peers are relevant to this discussion, but they aren't. An XY turning into an XX (or vise versa) is not a naturally occurring event. Not only that, is not even possible.

 

[DaveXA]

having a penis is not the sole identifying trait for a type of gender
having a penis also does not provide competitive advantage across the board

On the former, certainly not. There are lots of things that make boys fundamentally different from girls, penis being just one of them. That's stating the obvious, I think.

On the latter, a penis on it's own doesn't provide a competitive anything, but again, a boy's body is fundamentally different from a girl's body. And for a variety of reasons. It's obvious that transgenders becoming girls will have to take a long road before becoming eligible to compete with other girls. I think it's debatable whether transgenders can change enough to truly be equal in physique and estrogen levels.

It's a tough issue. I'd like to be able to accommodate transgenders regardless where they are in the transition, but I don't think there's an obvious or easy solution.

 

[rajncajn]

On the former, certainly not. There are lots of things that make boys fundamentally different from girls, penis being just one of them. That's stating the obvious, I think.

On the latter, a penis on it's own doesn't provide a competitive anything, but again, a boy's body is fundamentally different from a girl's body. And for a variety of reasons. It's obvious that transgenders becoming girls will have to take a long road before becoming eligible to compete with other girls. I think it's debatable whether transgenders can change enough to truly be equal in physique and estrogen levels.

It's a tough issue. I'd like to be able to accommodate transgenders regardless where they are in the transition, but I don't think there's an obvious or easy solution.

I agree, but I'll take it a step further. Some transgenders MAY be able to become equal in physique, but for many I believe it to be impossible. The problem is, you then must create a multitude of requirements that a transgender must meet, not just testosterone levels, in order to be allowed to compete. Here's the kick though, natural women may or may not meet those requirements as well.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

On the former, certainly not. There are lots of things that make boys fundamentally different from girls, penis being just one of them. That's stating the obvious, I think.

On the latter, a penis on it's own doesn't provide a competitive anything, but again, a boy's body is fundamentally different from a girl's body. And for a variety of reasons. It's obvious that transgenders becoming girls will have to take a long road before becoming eligible to compete with other girls. I think it's debatable whether transgenders can change enough to truly be equal in physique and estrogen levels.

It's a tough issue. I'd like to be able to accommodate transgenders regardless where they are in the transition, but I don't think there's an obvious or easy solution.

agree with everything 'on average'
but we're talking about the very, very narrow part of the bell curve
Usuain Bolt is faster than every women on the planet (probably), BUT FloJo (or whoever is the fastest 100m woman) is faster than ...???... 98 percent of the men on the planet? (probably more like 99.22 percent)
all olympic female sprinters beat all of the men's times in the 1950s - and that gap is narrowing

 

[DaveXA]

agree with everything 'on average'
but we're talking about the very, very narrow part of the bell curve
Usuain Bolt is faster than every women on the planet (probably), BUT FloJo (or whoever is the fastest 100m woman) is faster than ...???... 98 percent of the men on the planet? (probably more like 99.22 percent)
all olympic female sprinters beat all of the men's times in the 1950s - and that gap is narrowing

Oh, I agree, but if you compare today's elite women with today's elite men, the gap is still quite significant. I mean, I'm guessing the slowest male competitor is still a good bit faster than the fastest women's competitor.

But yeah, I agree that the women are definitely closing the gap, but the gap is still significant. The gap certainly will vary from sport to sport. We may get to where there is no gap, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[SystemShock]

agree with everything 'on average'
but we're talking about the very, very narrow part of the bell curve
Usuain Bolt is faster than every women on the planet (probably), BUT FloJo (or whoever is the fastest 100m woman) is faster than ...???... 98 percent of the men on the planet? (probably more like 99.22 percent)
all olympic female sprinters beat all of the men's times in the 1950s - and that gap is narrowing

I had to look that up, and unless I did something wrong in my search, it turns out the record holder for the 100 meters is still FloJo with 10.49 seconds, and the record has a note in the IAAF record books stating it may have been wind aided, but still, the record holds. And that was in 1988. The previous record was 10.76.

The slowest men's record in the 1950's is 10.2. So no, no single Olympic female sprinter has yet beaten the slowest men's mark of the 1950's.

In contrast, the men's record in 1988 was set by Carl Lewis @ 9.92 (Ben Johnson ran faster, but we know how the story went). Since 1988, men sprinters have shaved .34 of a second (Usain Bolt @ 9.58) to the 100 meter dash.

 

[RazorOye]

I guess you think that cases involving naturally occurring abnormal factors in athletes (Phelps, Semenya) when competing against their chromosomal peers are relevant to this discussion, but they aren't.

you said that Semenya should be out of luck. I (think I) disagree with the IAAF, assuming I understood your point. I read an article. It reminded of what you wrote, that Semenya should be out of luck. That seemed close enough to me.

This article was linked in the thread by Aratheael: https://www.apnews.com/f3bcaf134b7240d2af0bdc6dee39e596

Caster Semenya’s running future will be decided by three judges starting next week in a landmark case that will challenge science and gender politics.

The two-time Olympic 800-meter champion from South Africa is looking to overturn eligibility rules for hyperandrogenic athletes proposed by track and field’s governing body. The IAAF wants to require women with naturally elevated testosterone to lower their levels by medication before being allowed to compete in world-class races from 400 meters to one mile.

to that, you wrote:

If the IAAF is going to sanction the amount of testosterone in all athletes, Caster Semenya is SOL (or at least should be).

it was on topic then, it seemed. That's why I included it here. And I don't think she should be SOL.

 

[Flipx99]

This video, brought to you by the Daily Signal, gives some insight into this issue from the perspective of biologically female athletes:

 

[BobE]