Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (3 Viewers)

I'm pretty sure I stayed out of this thread (if I'm wrong, I just don't recall). I'm not reading all 23 pages of posts, so if there is a very good point I need to consider, point it out.
All of my points are awesome. You can just read those and ignore everyone else. :D
 
went though a few pages but did not see it discussed...
is the point of competition winning or improving?

the sprinter who only bronzed bc there were 2 trans athletes who beat her
if she continues to compete against them, she's bound to get better, right?
this is why USWNT competes against boy soccer teams - not to win, but to get better

Both. You get better in order to try and win. Did those 2 win 1/2 because they were trans or because they were just better? I think it's relevant.

To put it another way, that 3rd place athlete likely was already winning among other females until the trans athletes come into the picture. Right?
 
how in the world did you get there?

If Bronze strives to improve to beat Silver and Gold are the Silver and Gold runners incapable of improving at the same rate of Bronze? Is Bronze only improving because it is a feel good story to overcome the odds to beat Silver and Gold? The carrot on the stick argument doesn't hold weight here because everyone has the same size stick (no pun intended).
 
Both. You get better in order to try and win. Did those 2 win 1/2 because they were trans or because they were just better? I think it's relevant.
i was a very good athlete before HS - my best friend was just a physical freak
i was never going to beat him, but i certainly got better bc i competed against him ALL of the time
 
If Bronze strives to improve to beat Silver and Gold are the Silver and Gold runners incapable of improving at the same rate of Bronze? Is Bronze only improving because it is a feel good story to overcome the odds to beat Silver and Gold? The carrot on the stick argument doesn't hold weight here because everyone has the same size stick (no pun intended).
there was no 'to beat Silver & Gold'
chasing faster people makes you faster
it's a science fact
 
I think the competitive advantage needs to be factored in. I think in most cases, it makes more sense for transgendered girls (boys to girls) and transgendered boys (girls to boys) to be able to compete in the boys division or create their own or an open. This becomes more of a challenge in larger team sports. i.e. you can't have a transgendered basketball team, because most schools won't have 5-10 transgendered kids, let alone 5-10 who want to play basketball. I think this tends to come up more often in individual type sports. So, either they have to compete in the harder gender division, or an 'open' or 'un-rated' division / designation would need to be created.

Unrated, meaning.. Compete, but the result doesn't count. We disqualify kids for all kinds of reasons. I think that may be potentially more 'hurtful' than an "open division", but it may be more practical to implement when talking one or two kids.
I honestly like the idea of an open division where everyone is allowed a chance to compete.
 
i was a very good athlete before HS - my best friend was just a physical freak
i was never going to beat him, but i certainly got better bc i competed against him ALL of the time

Sure, but the point of competing, at least for a lot of people is to win, not just to get better.

I was a decent enough athlete in HS to win a decent amount in basketball, football and baseball. But those were all team sports, and while I helped the team win, I wasn't typically the best on the field. But our team usually was better than the other team. The point was we tried to win. I think if my team knew the other team was playing by a different set of rules, we'd probably still play, but know it wasn't a legitimate match.
 
there was no 'to beat Silver & Gold'
chasing faster people makes you faster
it's a science fact

So yet Bronze remains Bronze but the day before she was a Silver or a Gold? It wasn't a new girl that moved to town, it was a 5th Place from the Boys Track team that changed Tracks. Does that sound like competition?
 
i was a very good athlete before HS - my best friend was just a physical freak
i was never going to beat him, but i certainly got better bc i competed against him ALL of the time

And to be clear, I'm talking about formal sanctioned competitions. The sanctioning bodies for the various sports are going to have to deal with this and I don't envy the position they'll be in regarding coming up with rules for trans athletes.

I'm really curious to see how the NCAA handles this because let's say a men's all star trans to female and wants to join the women's team. Will the NCAA allow that?
 
Just for fun, State of Michigan Record Books for Discus for boys and girls. Also, the boys discus is 1.6kg and the girls is 1kg and smaller too.

boys.
1616518713056.png

girls. I also added in the high jump, because wow.. what a difference. But, only three girl record holders threw what the shortest records were for the boys, and with a discus almost half the size/weight.

1616518760359.png
 
I would argue that the difference would be significant enough at the mid and lower levels. Maybe not as apparent because I suspect people pay less attention to those levels. But it's there. And for someone who is already skilled making the transition will have the added advantage of being that much stronger physically than her peers, at least initially. I don't know if it should be 12 months or 24 months after, but even after all of the treatments there still is a small advantage, and maybe arguably skill can overcome that.

And this is coming from someone who is sympathetic to trans being able to fit in. I think it can work, but it's going to be a lot of trial and error before we settle on something that works for most everyone involved.

I do think expanding rosters could be a starting point. But every team is going to have to play by the same rules and agree on what's fair to everyone involved.

I agree. I think that there does need to be a waiting period and testing for some level of hormones/testosterone in an effort to make it fair. But, I have to say that I don't think it's really going to be a major issue long term. I mean, there aren't really that many trans people and the number of them that want to play sports at a competitive level is even smaller than that. And, the number that will be children that are at the point of transitioning and that want to play sports will be even smaller. And frankly, I'm much more worried about the kids at the youth level all getting a chance to play, even the less developed physically, than I am at the upper levels.
 
Flip that scenario and let all the boys try out for girls softball. What do you think the ratio would be of boys to girls on the softball team?

Higher than you think at least with pitchers. You ever try to throw a softball underhanded with speed and accuracy? It's very much so a skill that most boys will not have. I coached girls softball with a guy who pitched for an SEC baseball team. He tried to throw a softball underhanded with speed and accuracy and he couldn't do it as well as the girls on the team.
 

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