Type of offense versus roster (1 Viewer)

Randy Jones

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There has been much discussion about quarterbacks on this forum for quite a while. Now, we are all familiar with the type of offense the Saints ran under Coach Payton. Drew Brees was uniquely suited to run this offense. We saw, somewhat, the kind of offense that Coach Payton ran in 2021. Now, the question is should Coach Payton run the offense he did for 15 years under Brees or continue with whatever last year's was. If the former, does he have the quarterback on the roster to do that? If the latter, does he have the quarterback on the roster to do that?

Next, if Coach payton sticks to the 2021 offense, does the rest of the roster suit that offense. For instance if we run a deep threat passing attack do we have the receivers to get down field and the quarterback with the arm to get them the ball? If we continue to run the type offense we did for the first years of Coach Payton's tenure, do we need a new qb? Are the linemen suited for stronger pass protection/blocking longer to allow the deep pass attack to set up? If we run a different type of offense like 2021"s do we need different type of linemen?

There is an old saying that you cant fit a square peg in a round hole. As the Saints try to rebuild and reestablish a effective offense are they presented with the same dilemma roster-wise as the square peg into the round hole?
 

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Every player is suited to run Sean's offense because he doesn't really run a "scheme" in the classic sense of the meaning. His calls plays to take the talent he has and create matchup issues with the talent the defense has. Just with Brees as the QB his offense evolved to a sling it down field offense to a ball control passing game offense to a run-based offense over 15 years. You hear him talk about a player, their unique skillset and a "vision" for how they will be used. Little clues like that will key you in on what you can expect in terms of play-calling and offensive design. With Jameis, we saw the return of more downfield passing, but still a focus on ball-control and making every possession count.

No one else can install Sean's offense because whomever Sean has at QB is the offense. It can literally change week-to-week as we saw this last year.
 

Booker

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What we saw in 2021 was a practice squad offense. A lot will depend on what quarterback they settle on and what he brings to the table, but regardless of who they go with there I'd like to see more talent added to that side of the ball, particulary at WR and OL.
 

St.Dan

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Good OP. Lots of food for thought in there.

Above all, though, I gotta believe dollars and cents will dictate the moves at QB. And the one that fits the personality of this FO the best is re-offering Winston a contract. It would be a mild surprise to be out-bid for him, given he's coming off knee surgery. But it surely wouldn't be as overpriced a deal as going after the QBs likely to stay with their teams anyway.

Winston showed a lot of patience in his half of a season under center. Would love to see him play with a healthier team, especially at O-line!
 
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SWJJ

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Every player is suited to run Sean's offense because he doesn't really run a "scheme" in the classic sense of the meaning. His calls plays to take the talent he has and create matchup issues with the talent the defense has. Just with Brees as the QB his offense evolved to a sling it down field offense to a ball control passing game offense to a run-based offense over 15 years. You hear him talk about a player, their unique skillset and a "vision" for how they will be used. Little clues like that will key you in on what you can expect in terms of play-calling and offensive design. With Jameis, we saw the return of more downfield passing, but still a focus on ball-control and making every possession count.

No one else can install Sean's offense because whomever Sean has at QB is the offense. It can literally change week-to-week as we saw this last year.
 

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I think that’s a valid question. Payton definitely has his own type of play design and play calling. If Payton is going to remain the coach, the team has to find the pieces that he runs. Now, that’s not to say he doesn’t take advantage of the flexibility some players provide, but they must fit his core offense first.

At QB, he needs a guy who can read a defense, check out of plays fast and have a lightning quick release. And they mustn’t commit bone headed turn overs. I think that is where we ran into problems this year. How many times did we take a delay of game, false start or burn a time out because the team wasn’t ready to go. It’s not arm talent or leadership. It’s these 3 things.

At WR, he requires a variety of traits, but many of them different from each other. He needs at least one to be a burner to stretch the field. He needs at least one to be big and tough to high point the ball over the middle while taking a hit. He also needs a good and willing downfield blocker. He’s never required super shifty acrobatic or super fast guys like most star receivers are, but all of them need to run precise routes and have great hands.

On the O Line, he needs guys that can compliment the quick release of the QB while quickly processing the defensive reads the QB calls out pre snap. In this system, they aren’t expected to be able to hold up for 4 seconds.

At RB, he needs a couple of different traits. The first RB must be able to be effective in the passing game. The second must be a bruiser between the tackles. They both need to be elite pass blockers.

How much of that do we have currently? It’s hard to say at QB, I think Siemian and Winston are closest. At WR, only MT actually fits any of those roles, maybe Harris as the burner, but he is small compared to the DBs covering him. OL, I think these guys actually fit his mold well enough, if the other things happen. RB, while Ingram is older and was injured, he and AK fit exactly what Payton likes.

So it comes down to QB and WRs in terms of matching what Payton likes for his system. This isn’t MY argument, but I f we can’t fill the roster of his kind of players, we’d likely be be better off with a coach that has a scheme that fits the roster.
You basically just described the bare minimum requirements for offensive personnel for every offensive style the NFL has seen used since 1980. I don't see any teams drafting QBs that can't read a defense, a WR tandem that can't work the entire field, a RB tandem that work both the rushing and passing game or an OL that can't read the defense.
 

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What we saw in 2021 was a practice squad offense. A lot will depend on what quarterback they settle on and what he brings to the table, but regardless of who they go with there I'd like to see more talent added to that side of the ball, particulary at WR and OL.
I feel like this can't be emphasized enough. Sean Payton's offensive play-calling took a TE, lined him up at QB where he threw passes to WRs that would not start for any other team in the NFL behind an OL that never played all the starters after the first couple weeks of the season.

Nobody else is doing that.
 

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Right because your contention is that all players fit, gotcha.
No, my contention is that Sean uses the skillsets of players to their strengths. Honestly, it's not even my "contention". It's an observation of fact from over 15 years of play-calling. This isn't an opinion. It's pointing out what has actually happened for over a decade.

Just look at the WRs and TEs that have been used over the years. Meachem, Devery, Lance, Mike, Jimmy, Dave Thomas, Shockey, Cook, Colby, Colston, Hill, Cooks, etc. None of these guys fit a "type". Brandon Cooks could fly, BB it he was used mostly in a "possession" type role. Lance was used mostly in the slot, but once he was gone there wasn't a rush to fill his skillset. Devery gets attention as a deep ball guy, but his real strength was running after the catch.

If there is any real "scheme" to Sean's offense, it's that he has a preference to using 12 personnel, with one TE being primarily a blocker and one TE being primarily a receiver. Even this is done to give flexibility to creating matchups vs defenses. With two TE, you have to respect the running game which might force a defense to keep a LBer on the field putting them at a disadvantage to covering the TE. Pull the LBer for a Safety to cover the 2nd TE and now they are opened up for the rushing game.
 
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St. Widge

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No, my contention is that Sean uses the skillsets of players to their strengths. Honestly, it's not even my "contention". It's an observation of fact from over 15 years of play-calling. This isn't an opinion. It's pointing out what has actually happened for over a decade.

Yep. Really the only part of the offense where we have to get guys that "fits what Payton does" is on the O-Line because our zone blocking scheme with lots of pulling requires agile and fast offensive linemen. Otherwise, Payton will use any skillset a player has to it's highest potential.
 

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I feel like this can't be emphasized enough. Sean Payton's offensive play-calling took a TE, lined him up at QB where he threw passes to WRs that would not start for any other team in the NFL behind an OL that never played all the starters after the first couple weeks of the season.

Nobody else is doing that.
Truth.
 

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Yep. Really the only part of the offense where we have to get guys that "fits what Payton does" is on the O-Line because our zone blocking scheme with lots of pulling requires agile and fast offensive linemen. Otherwise, Payton will use any skillset a player has to it's highest potential.
This too, along with the 2 TE sets. The Saints really want athletic OL because they all find themselves pulling and stretching for blocks. It why Larry Watford was a bad fit and they were fine with not paying Carl Nick's over Jahri Evans. The OL got more agile when they added Ben Grubbs at LG.
 

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I don't think you can draw any conclusions on Sean Payton's offense in 2021 or his intentions going forward. I think we started the year planning on Winston, AK, and MT along with one of the strongest OLs in the league making defenses play either/or football like we used to do with Graham/Sproles.

That team never took the field. If it had, I think it's fair to say our defense would've made us an actual contender. And like we did the year before, if we were a contender only missing a single playmaker on offense to put us over the top, I believe we would've been a little more active before the trade deadline.

As it played out, I think SP just worked his butt off week to week coming up with ways to give us a chance in the next game with whatever roster we were able to put on the field.
 

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I feel like this can't be emphasized enough. Sean Payton's offensive play-calling took a TE, lined him up at QB where he threw passes to WRs that would not start for any other team in the NFL behind an OL that never played all the starters after the first couple weeks of the season.

Nobody else is doing that.

I was about to answer "what 2021 offense" but you put it much better above....What make CSP so good is he does exactly how you described in an earlier post, I do agree with the notion that he likes quick, athletic OLman....but, I guess, who doesn't?
 
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Excellent thread premise...I think a large part of our offensive struggle this year was due in part to how our receivers were put together to be successful in our old offense. In the last few Brees years, our offense consisted of a ton of < 5 yd patterns...4 yard outs, fast slants, HB swings and screens, and a lot of "find a spot in the short zone"s. We had WRs that catered to Drews limitations but who couldn't take advantage of what a QB like Winston brought to the table.

Because this limited route tree, we found we had no need for speed receivers so our WRs got bigger and slower with an emphasis on being able to catch a ball in traffic. With Winston, we tried to open things back up and found that our WR group couldn't get the job done.
 

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I was about to answer "what 2021 offense" but you put it much better above....What make CSP so good is he does exactly how you described in an earlier post, I do agree with the notion that he likes quick, athletic OLman....but, I guess, who doesn't?
Well, more teams are favoring zone blocking schemes now, but a few still are holdovers for man or angle blocking schemes. I don't know if that's just because powerful, athletic big men are more difficult to find than in years past or simply offensive preference. The Steelers, Bills, Titans and Ravens favor a power blocking scheme, so less emphasis has been made on quick, athletic OL and more on the big mauling, power guys.
 

sfidc3

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Well, more teams are favoring zone blocking schemes now, but a few still are holdovers for man or angle blocking schemes. I don't know if that's just because powerful, athletic big men are more difficult to find than in years past or simply offensive preference. The Steelers, Bills, Titans and Ravens favor a power blocking scheme, so less emphasis has been made on quick, athletic OL and more on the big mauling, power guys.

Totally agree, to run the type of screen and flats pass offense that CSP likes you need TA and Ram types (big mauling and athletic) and there are very few of those guys around....
 
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