Ukraine (38 Viewers)

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rail said:
A year ago I couldn't fathom holding an entire country in utter contempt (putting it mildly). But here I am. Russia sucks.
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100 years of war, purges, brain drain, and state-controlled media leads to an entire population who think they are doing the right thing.
 
DaveXA said:
@KiwiSaint - what's your take on this? Just curious if this lines up with what you're seeing and hearing there.
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It’s quite interesting…the border town mentioned in the article is Shebekino. People there are nervous about the situation due to daily artillery shelling, both incoming and outgoing.

You’ve got to understand that the overwhelming majority of Russians are very naive to world events and other cultures. They don’t have money to travel outside Russia, they are bombarded with government propaganda, they don’t know what they don’t know. Think about some of our US citizens that haven’t left the state they were born in, and get their news and ideas from social media. For us it’s a minority of our population…in Russia it would be 85% plus. They only know one side of the story.

Now, my closest friend and colleague here was in the army and when I first arrived, an ardent patriot and supporter of the military operation. Yesterday, while driving back from a farm, he said to me…”I don’t know what the fork this is all for!”. “I used to go shopping in Kharkiv every weekend, drinking and chasing girls at the casino. They are our brothers, not our enemy.” The mood is changing slowly…

The more educated, supporters have a few talking points:

1. The Donbas and Luhansk were populated with a majority of ethnic Russians. These regions wanted to leave Ukraine and join the Russian Federation. Russians were discriminated against in the regions.
2. Crimea was historically part of Russia, not Ukraine. Strategic importance for Black Sea fleet.
3. We don’t want a NATO army on our border. We hoped for a regime change in Ukraine after the invasion, so it could be a buffer state like Belarus. They always say to me…how would the US act if a Mexican government allied itself with China and allowed Chinese military bases to be built near the border? Would the US invade and force a regime change in that circumstance? For me, this is always a difficult one to answer. Imagine our citizens in Texas or Arizona in such a scenario…they’d be raising hell to invade Mexico!

From a Russian point of view, the points are difficult to argue. The culture is paranoid of the West, their ego is shattered from the fall of the Soviet Union. The first man in space, ruling Eastern Europe, defeating Hitler, it’s been a long, slow decline. I’m sure a lot of the educated population feel this loss of prestige and a quick victory over Ukraine was looked at positively.

Now, I think reality is setting in. They know they can’t win…the loss of life is being discussed openly. There is definitely more discontent in the air. The Z insignias are much less noticeable around Belgorod. But unfortunately, this small part of the population can’t do anything. It is a police state and there is no chance of a popular uprising, a “Russian Spring” is not going to happen. We can only hope that Putin and his cronies run out of money and willpower.
 
KiwiSaint said:
1. The Donbas and Luhansk were populated with a majority of ethnic Russians. These regions wanted to leave Ukraine and join the Russian Federation. Russians were discriminated against in the regions.
2. Crimea was historically part of Russia, not Ukraine. Strategic importance for Black Sea fleet.
3. We don’t want a NATO army on our border. We hoped for a regime change in Ukraine after the invasion, so it could be a buffer state like Belarus. They always say to me…how would the US act if a Mexican government allied itself with China and allowed Chinese military bases to be built near the border? Would the US invade and force a regime change in that circumstance? For me, this is always a difficult one to answer. Imagine our citizens in Texas or Arizona in such a scenario…they’d be raising hell to invade Mexico!
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1. Ethnic Russians could have simply moved across the border if they wanted to "be in Russia" so badly. Donbas/Luhansk - it was 1-2% that actually wanted to return to the Russian fold. Many pro-Ukrainians left that area over the years due to the constant war. So majority remaining were Russian.

Furthermore, if Russia simply wanted to "protect" its ethnic people, negotiations should have taken place. But Putin installed a puppet in Kyiv, and once ousted, couldnt be trusted. And honestly, had they just come across the border in those regions, we might not be here. Instead, they tried to take Kyiv, Kharkiv all the way south to Odessa and everything East. Sorry that dog dont hunt.

2. Historically...until it was formally given by Stalin to Ukraine. Im guessing since it was still "Soviet Ukraine" all was good. Until Ukraine in 1991 went independent. And even after declaring its independence, it really wasnt an issue until Putin

3. this is an easy fix....stop with the authoritarian regimes. Stop with the global domination thru force mantra. Adopt a more pragmatic way of life vs this hermit kingdom built soley off identity.

As for China/Mexico....diplomacy is what keeps Mexico aligned with US ( including geography ). Russia doesnt have diplomacy as they see diplomacy as a weakness. When, in fact, used correctly, is a strength.


Its probably WAAAY more intertwined ( political/national identity etc etc ) than above...but i also think that simplicity here is how this ends. Recognize that Ukrainians are indeed their own people with own identity. To do so doesnt belittle your own. Russians will still be Russians regardless of what Ukrainians are or arent.

the only way this happens is Putin is deposed and a pragmatic leader is elected who understands that the "national isolation game" will leave you like North Korea than it will any western country.
 
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I view this as probably being something somehow significant to the war in Ukraine.

I don't know, I'm tempted to speculate about why I think it's significant. I guess I'll pass on doing that for now.

When I do get around to it I'll put that kind of speculation in the Ukraine thread at the Politics board.

www.seattletimes.com

Biden to visit Poland for anniversary of Ukraine war

President Joe Biden will travel to Poland later this month to rally allies a year after Russia’s assault on Ukraine began.
www.seattletimes.com www.seattletimes.com
 
As if Vuldehar wasn't enough losses...commander of the 14th regiment of Special Forces killed in that turkey shoot.

 

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