Ukraine (18 Viewers)

sfidc3

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Good for Poland....I mean at least to me it's pretty clear what Putin is doing, it happens here in this country as well....accuse others of doing exactly what you are doing.....
 

mjcouvi

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So your solution is to "close ranks" and let the under-supplied, over-matched Ukrainians deal with it?

Question...if your child is friends with another child who is being bullied, do you tell your child " dont get involved" or do you tell your child " stand up for your friend"?
When figuring out where moral lines are drawn, I look into myself, and I ponder philosophical questions about how to capture the place for those moral lines.

Ukranians are in trouble. Newsworthy narratives don't capture the origin of what's happening. If one looks at this problem and cannot discern America's role as some part of the source of it, then I don't think one is being honest about the whole situation and I don't believe this American-nationalistic-based thinking provides useful solutions. I simply don't buy the American anger over the situation as legitimate when there are things this country could so obviously do to save lives, only by changing policy.

I think that the metaphor you provide is not particularly relevant, but I'll answer. I would tell my child it is his or her choice, up to his or her judgment, and he or she should think about it thoroughly prior to taking action, because actions have consequences that are more complicated than the immediacy of what one would like to achieve.
 
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efil4stnias

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When figuring out where moral lines are drawn, I look into myself, and I ponder philosophical questions about how to capture the place for those moral lines.

Ukranians are in trouble. Newsworthy narratives don't capture the origin of what's happening. If one looks at this problem and cannot discern America's role as some part of the source of it, then I don't think one is being honest about the whole situation.

I think that the metaphor you provide is not particularly relevant, but I'll answer. I tell my child it is his choice, up to his judgment, and he should think about it thoroughly prior to taking action, because actions have consequences that are more complicated than the immediate result.

Its totally relevant and while you allow your child to make that determination, i direct mine into making what i feel is the proper choice of assisting. Now its up to them to decide if my advice is taken or not, but i wont sit by without offering them both sides and making them aware of my morals.

A child looks to parent for guidance. An elder - We ( the US ) is the elder when it comes to democracy across the globe.

I dont need a primer on US activities in eastern Europe to know that Putin CANT STAND democracy because a true democracy means he is all but done.
 

efil4stnias

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This is likely the origin of our disagreement.

Certainly possible.

I come from European stock. My parents were kids of WWII and made their way to the US in the late 60s. So there is an element of "what the US stands for" that runs thru my blood. Thats why my parents came here. Can the US do no wrong? absolutely not.

But for all the missteps and wrong, the US has always looked to extol democratic virtues globally. And coming from parents who were well aware of the "other" types of governance, always reminded us just how lucky we were. And those wrongs, whatever you perceive them to be, does not mean we have to sit idly by to witness the extermination of a people, and ideal and a country looking for its own identity that follows the democratic process.

We arent nation building here, we are aiding a friend who hold the same thoughts as us regarding democracy and freedoms.
 

HoustonSaint68

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When figuring out where moral lines are drawn, I look into myself, and I ponder philosophical questions about how to capture the place for those moral lines.

Ukranians are in trouble. Newsworthy narratives don't capture the origin of what's happening. If one looks at this problem and cannot discern America's role as some part of the source of it, then I don't think one is being honest about the whole situation and I don't believe this American-nationalistic-based thinking provides useful solutions. I simply don't buy the American anger over the situation as legitimate when there are things this country could so obviously do to save lives, only by changing policy.

I think that the metaphor you provide is not particularly relevant, but I'll answer. I would tell my child it is his or her choice, up to his or her judgment, and he or she should think about it thoroughly prior to taking action, because actions have consequences that are more complicated than the immediacy of what one would like to achieve.
Ok, but the main thrust of most of the disagreement with you here is not your conviction about the self-delusion of Americans and Europeans -- it's your insistence that, presumably because you believe that the West is at least partially to blame, the West should stay out of the conflict and leave the Ukranians to deal with the naked invasion of their country alone.

The US was an extremely racist, hypocritical, practically-imperialist country in 1939. I suspect that if we would have hidden under sackcloth and ashes back then, as you propose that we do now, and left Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and their victims to their own devices, you wouldn't have the luxury of your Philosophy 101 musings absent realpolitik context.
 

mjcouvi

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Ok, but the main thrust of most of the disagreement with you here is not your conviction about the self-delusion of Americans and Europeans -- it's your insistence that, presumably because you believe that the West is at least partially to blame, the West should stay out of the conflict and leave the Ukranians to deal with the naked invasion of their country alone.

The US was an extremely racist, hypocritical, practically-imperialist country in 1939. I suspect that if we would have hidden under sackcloth and ashes back then, as you propose that we do now, and left Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and their victims to their own devices, you wouldn't have the luxury of your Philosophy 101 musings absent realpolitik context.
I failed philosophy 101, literally. But I didn't go to class.

I don't know if the west should stay out of it, but I do think the west should be more self-aware, recognizing their role in the origin of it, which is significant. A bit of wisdom, taking a larger body of history into account, shows the US shares blame.

I would only hope that people take a comprehensive view of this crisis and other worldwide crises, which have commonly developed under a heavy US influence.

Maybe I tend to place too much blame on US policy, and that's a reaction to being a US citizen who thinks I should say something about the truth, and it's also a result of my personal feelings about people who see this conflict as almost solely the fault of Putin.
 

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I failed philosophy 101, literally. But I didn't go to class.

I don't know if the west should stay out of it, but I do think the west should be more self-aware, recognizing their role in the origin of it, which is significant. A bit of wisdom, taking a larger body of history into account, shows the US shares blame.

I would only hope that people take a comprehensive view of the crisis.

Maybe I tend to place too much blame on US policy, and that's a reaction to being a US citizen who thinks I should say something about the truth, and it's also a result of my personal feelings about people who see this conflict as almost solely the fault of Putin.

It IS solely the fault of Putin. No one else. Unless you subscribe to the notion that an independent, democratic nation can't decide their own fate just because one of their neighbors have other plans.
 

mjcouvi

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It IS solely the fault of Putin. No one else. Unless you subscribe to the notion that an independent, democratic nation can't decide their own fate just because one of their neighbors have other plans.
If you see Putin's actions in a vacuum, sure, you're right.
 

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I failed philosophy 101, literally. But I didn't go to class.

I don't know if the west should stay out of it, but I do think the west should be more self-aware, recognizing their role in the origin of it, which is significant. A bit of wisdom, taking a larger body of history into account, shows the US shares blame.

I would only hope that people take a comprehensive view of this crisis and other worldwide crises, which have commonly developed under a heavy US influence.

Maybe I tend to place too much blame on US policy, and that's a reaction to being a US citizen who thinks I should say something about the truth, and it's also a result of my personal feelings about people who see this conflict as almost solely the fault of Putin.
Do you think it's the US's fault that Putin invaded? You believe that he feels "threatened"? Or do you believe, like most, that he just wants more land?
 

mjcouvi

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Do you think it's the US's fault that Putin invaded? You believe that he feels "threatened"? Or do you believe, like most, that he just wants more land?
No, I don't think it's the US's fault in some direct way. Worldwide political decisions that span a century or more impact what is happening in Ukraine currently. Putin is using that history as an excuse to do what he's doing. I think he's wrong, but to completely dispense the US role in this conflict is folly. The roots of what's happening now come from over 100 years ago or more.
 

mjcouvi

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Putin is a bad guy, and I hope he dies, I think that'd be best. But one can hate Putin AND the US policy which has motivated Putin. It's not either/or. Human behavior isn't so simple.
 

literature

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Kind of funny how some Americans think this war is partially America's fault when Russia menacing the world in this way has been its method of operation since before the declaration of independance was written.

Don't trick yourself into American-izing the motivations of Putin or his cadre. Their MO was written before the US was born.
 
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HoustonSaint68

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I failed philosophy 101, literally. But I didn't go to class.

I don't know if the west should stay out of it, but I do think the west should be more self-aware, recognizing their role in the origin of it, which is significant. A bit of wisdom, taking a larger body of history into account, shows the US shares blame.

I would only hope that people take a comprehensive view of the crisis.

I don’t want to be snarky because I do believe you’re coming from a sincere place…but perhaps you should have gone to class because you’re kinda talking out of both sides of your mouth and arguing illogically.

So above you say “I don’t know if the West should stay out of it….” but in an earlier post you said:

”I do not pretend to know any good solution except I would like those who govern me to stay out of it.…This territory, half a world away, is not our business and I hope the voters elect someone who will say "STOP!"”


I absolutely HATE playing “gotcha” games here but you must know that what’s happening in Ukraine is really serious business and you’re coming here and stating a position diametrically opposed to many very intelligent posters here — an opinion that you assert is based in philosophy thus presuming consistency and logic — but then you argue inconsistent positions in different posts, play fast and loose with history to imply moral equivalency, and conflate importantly distinct concepts (like “blame” with “errors in judgment based on imperfect information“).

I honestly do believe your sincerity on this subject and can respect that you have a different opinion — sincerely-held and lived pacifism rightly earns respect.

But, similarly, you simply must recognize from the pages and pages of comments here the strong emotional connection others have regarding what’s happening over there. And I think that requires you to bring a bit more logic and consistency to your argument than you have thus far.
 

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Putin is a bad guy, and I hope he dies, I think that'd be best. But one can hate Putin AND the US policy which has motivated Putin. It's not either/or. Human behavior isn't so simple.

The US policy which has motivated Putin is that unlike Russia, the US population is allowed to question its government and military, raising the potential for internal stress, dissent, and a draining of the will for conflict. Putin views this as an explotable weakness.
 

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