Ukraine (26 Viewers)

[bclemms]

Too much specific info being brought into the public’s view. It is unnecessary. But at the same time, who in the administration is divulging the details for the media to broadcast to the general public?

The much better question to be asked. I don't really like the idea of a goverment run media. Can you imagine if government controlled all media during the Trump administration? This thread wouldn't exist because we would be too busy fighting the second civil war.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

Sorry, but I find it hard to quantify "too many russians". It's very hard to find any pity for them any longer.

I don't think this is fair to the many citizens of Russians who do not agree with Putin(which seem to be many more than who do agree).

If this was Russian soldiers, I could understand that sentiment. But to lump all Russians in with the actions of Putin and his military is wrong.

 

[0rion]

I don't think this is fair to the many citizens of Russians who do not agree with Putin(which seem to be many more than who do agree).

If this was Russian soldiers, I could understand that sentiment. But to lump all Russians in with the actions of Putin and his military is wrong.

While I do agree it's not fair to lump all Russians into one group I go back and forth with my feelings on that. Where would we be as a country if we would've rolled over to England? Where would we be as a country if we would've allowed the south to secede from the union? To do nothing and stay silent is the same as condone. The risk is great for them but so is the reward. Many Americans died in the 2 examples I provided but our country is far better because of their sacrifice.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

While I do agree it's not fair to lump all Russians into one group I go back and forth with my feelings on that. Where would we be as a country if we would've rolled over to England? Where would we be as a country if we would've allowed the south to secede from the union? To do nothing and stay silent is the same as condone. The risk is great for them but so is the reward. Many Americans died in the 2 examples I provided but our country is far better because of their sacrifice.

I feel like it's the same way people lump all Muslims when it comes to terrorists, or all Jews when it comes to actions of the government against Palestinians. It's never a good idea to castigate an entire group of people based on the actions of a smaller minority.

 

[0rion]

I feel like it's the same way people lump all Muslims when it comes to terrorists, or all Jews when it comes to actions of the government against Palestinians. It's never a good idea to castigate an entire group of people based on the actions of a smaller minority.

I don't disagree. Although I'm not sure those are quite the same as a population sitting quietly while their govt commits crimes against humanity.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

I don't disagree. Although I'm not sure those are quite the same as a population sitting quietly while their govt commits crimes against humanity.

I wouldn't say quietly. Have you seen the reports of protests in Russia as well as Russian police imprisoning people who are protesting as well. No telling how many people have been shuttered away in Russia who oppose the war.

Kremlin crackdown silences war protests, from benign to bold

A former police officer who discussed Russia's invasion on the phone. A priest who preached to his congregation about the suffering of Ukrainians.

apnews.com

 

[SamAndreas]

Russian "leaders" know we're behind a lot of the intelligence but we really shouldn't be bragging about it.

Putin is going to Putin, but to put this thing to an end we need the Russian people to take our side and turn against him, and this isn't helping. It's one thing for Ukraine to punch back and score some big wins, but its another for the big bully USA to take credit for it.

The world isn't "Putin versus errybody" as much as we'd like to think. The US doesn't have a great reputation either. For forks sake, just say it was all Ukraine with a wink. Don't give any concrete ammo to support Putin's claims that the US is the aggressor here.

I think you are talking about every day good normal Russian people as if they think in a rational manner when in reality they actually are duped by their government and in doing so they believe whatever their government says.

I think what information that has been released by our government has been thought out to have a beneficial effect for us by people who really do know what they are doing.

Here's an image of a typical American Internet armchair general who doesn't know very much.

Our guys really do know what they are doing. They're damned good at what they do. I have a lot of faith in them.

 

[Sailorsaint]

I think you are talking about every day good normal Russian people as if they think in a rational manner when in reality they actually are duped by their government and in doing so they believe whatever their government says.

I think what information that has been released by our government has been thought out to have a beneficial effect for us by people who really do know what they are doing.

Here's an image of a typical American Internet armchair general who doesn't know very much.

Our guys really do know what they are doing. They're damned good at what they do. I have a lot of faith in them.

I have a lot of faith in them as well but, I don't think they are infallible. They make mistakes just like the rest of us and sometimes those mistakes are pretty big. Mainly because they are acting on more info than we have at our fingertips. I'm hoping they know what they are doing right now and this isn't some leak or screw up.

 

[superchuck500]

Thread

 

[SamAndreas]

I have a lot of faith in them as well but, I don't think they are infallible. They make mistakes just like the rest of us and sometimes those mistakes are pretty big. Mainly because they are acting on more info than we have at our fingertips. I'm hoping they know what they are doing right now and this isn't some leak or screw up.

I think this release of information on may 4th or 5th was calculated to steal the thunder from Putin on May 8th during his Soviet victory parade when he is likely to give a speech, and in that speech he is likely to announce that he is widening the war. Either declaring war, or mobilizing for a greater war effort, or both.

Our guy stole his thunder and there's noting wrong with doing that. We've helped the Ukrainians kill a dozen of their generals, and helped them to sink the Russian flagship to boot. That should scare the hell out of them.

Warfare is not only shooting people on a battlefield, it is in attacking the minds of the enemy as well. We need to use everything we got to defeat them.

We've got a lot, and the Ukrainians have a lot.

 

[Super44]

Just to circle back to this quickly, apparently, the Ukranians spotted the ship, and relayed that to US and we confirmed the ship as well as location. Basically just confirming what Ukraine already knew with maybe a little extra data. This seems to confirm what I suspected in that raw intel is being collected by Ukraine and basically augmenting what they find with Intel we're sharing.

The U.S. provided the exact location of the Moscow

I don't know. I'm still trying to nail down what specific intel was leaked though. I know we corroborated the ship's identity and location, but what specific classified info did we give them that they couldn't get on their own? Do you know?

Not I, you, or the guy down the street knows. You say; “I know we corroborated the ship’s identity and location…”. Not sure of the details. Neither is anyone else. We are all reading info provided from different sources and believing what we read to be factual. In some cases, I think things are a bit embellished. But why? Why would a media source do such? It only hurts us (U.S.).

As an example. I read that U.S. spies were able to provide the Ukrainians info about the Moscow’s broken radar. Where is something like this coming from and being divulged by whom? Where and who in the administration, is leaking the information? That is my big issue.

 

[Sailorsaint]

The U.S. provided the exact location of the Moscow

Not I, you, or the guy down the street knows. You say; “I know we corroborated the ship’s identity and location…”. Not sure of the details. Neither is anyone else. We are all reading info provided from different sources and believing what we read to be factual. In some cases, I think things are a bit embellished. But why? Why would a media source do such? It only hurts us (U.S.).

As an example. I read that U.S. spies were able to provide the Ukrainians info about the Moscow’s broken radar. Where is something like this coming from and being divulged by whom? Where and who in the administration, is leaking the information? That is my big issue.

And I saw a piece that said Ukraine took out that radar with one of the two drones it had in the area distracting the Moskva. Also saw a piece that said the U.S. has "observation" drones in the Black Sea gathering data. So, it depends on what the source is and which narrative they are promoting. Maybe both versions are out there to confuse the Russians a bit, make them wonder where the intel is coming from.

 

[DaveXA]

The U.S. provided the exact location of the Moscow

The Administration and DoD has denied this. Not that it's not true, but officially, they're not painting targets. What is clear is that we are sharing intel. They're just not specific to the details of the intel.

Not I, you, or the guy down the street knows. You say; “I know we corroborated the ship’s identity and location…”.

i know this based on reporting. Now the reporting may be wrong, but they stated it as matter of fact. The facts are only as good or reliable as your sources.

Not sure of the details. Neither is anyone else. We are all reading info provided from different sources and believing what we read to be factual. In some cases, I think things are a bit embellished. But why? Why would a media source do such? It only hurts us (U.S.).

No, it doesn't hurt only the US. It could be misdirection, or deliberately planted info to either fool the Russians or build confidence in the Ukranians. We both use information to wage psychological warfare. The "Ghost of Kyiv' is an example, or in Russia's case, false flag ops are commonly used to distract or lead assets on a goose chase.

As an example. I read that U.S. spies were able to provide the Ukrainians info about the Moscow’s broken radar. Where is something like this coming from and being divulged by whom? Where and who in the administration, is leaking the information? That is my big issue.

It could be an intentional leak to gain an advantage in the psychological ops game. It could be a Russian asset, or a reporter could even be making it up by quoting anonymous sources. Just depends on who's doing what with the intel.

 

[Tapxe]

The U.S. provided the exact location of the Moscow

Not I, you, or the guy down the street knows. You say; “I know we corroborated the ship’s identity and location…”. Not sure of the details. Neither is anyone else. We are all reading info provided from different sources and believing what we read to be factual. In some cases, I think things are a bit embellished. But why? Why would a media source do such? It only hurts us (U.S.).

As an example. I read that U.S. spies were able to provide the Ukrainians info about the Moscow’s broken radar. Where is something like this coming from and being divulged by whom? Where and who in the administration, is leaking the information? That is my big issue.

Where are you reading these things?

Intelligence provided by the U.S. helped Ukrainians sink Russian ship Moskva

Intelligence the U.S. provided showed the location of the Moskva, but the U.S. had no role in the decision to strike it.

www.cbsnews.com

"Ukraine combines information that we and other partners provide with the intelligence that they themselves are gathering on the battlefield, and then they make their own decisions and take their own actions," Kirby said.

Overnight Thursday, Kirby issued another statement emphasizing that the U.S. had no involvement in and no knowledge of Ukraine's plans to hit the Moskva.


"We did not provide Ukraine with specific targeting information for the Moskva. We were not involved in the Ukrainians' decision to strike the ship or in the operation they carried out," Kirby said. "We had no prior knowledge of Ukraine's intent to target the ship. The Ukrainians have their own intelligence capabilities to track and target Russian naval vessels, as they did in this case."

Based on reputable reporting, it seems that your sources are leading you a bit astray compared to what is officially being stated. It's a fine line between discussing events in Ukraine and a political attack job against the administration.

We can't go down the rabbit hole on how the administration is handling this without seeking clarity about the role of the prior administration holding unrecorded private meetings with the aggressor nation leader and questionable phone conversations with the nation being attacked.

So I'll leave this as a warning that you're in a grey area which will be quickly pushed off this thread to the MAP board where I'm sure there is an adequate thread for your newfound interest.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

Agreed. Let’s steer back to non-partisan territory.