Ukraine (19 Viewers)

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SamAndreas said:
If they used the big ones and they could hit it, it would sure damage the bridge, but could they hit the bridge?

That bridge is protected in layers of defensive systems that would include the newest electronic counter measures that the Russians have, which would more than likely render those guided bombs way less accurate than they would be if they were going after a less protected target.

The JDAM systems are only accurate enough for a narrow bridge if they can access GPS signal, and I would doubt that they could access that signal in such a protected zone because of the electronic counter measures that the Russians have in place there.

Do you remember in the 90's there was a lot of talk about the B-2's? They could have delivered the necessary JDAM bombs in the mid 90's because no one could see them coming on radar. That time has passed. The Russian S-300 defense systems were introduced in the mid 90's and at that point their radars were good enough that they pretty much rendered our B-2's obsolete. That was a big enough sea change that we stopped making the B-2's at that point. We only have 20 of them now.

Then the Russians went on to introduce the improved S-400, systems and that was that insofar as us having an invisible aircraft. Our B-2's could no longer hide from the Russians or the radars of anyone who is not a third world power.

They are protecting that bridge with the S-400 systems in depth. With that they can keep any of our aircraft that are big enough to deliver the largest JDAM bombs out of reach without us suffering a lot of loses of people and aircraft.
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Just circling back to a thought on this, but if we were fully involved in the war, what I imagine we'd do if we really wanted to take the bridge out, we'd first take out their S-400s and other anti-air defenses before attacking the bridge.

I do have a thought though. Securing an intact bridge like that might make more tactical sense than destroying it. If the Ukranians could push the Russians back far enough that they'd have to cede control of the bridge, it might make sense to leave it alone.

That said, I wouldn't be shocked if the Russians are prepared to destroy it in the case of a withdrawal. Could turn into a game of chicken. Who flinches first?
 
DaveXA said:
They probably have countermeasures for subs as well, but was wondering if we were able to sneak a sub in there and take out the bridge that way? Just spitballing. Or maybe some sort of low flying stealth drone, but not so sure those have enough payloads to do the damage needed without getting tracked down via Russian air defenses.
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I don't know much about subs. However I would think the water there would be too shallow there for a sub to hide very well.

I think the bridge is too heavily defended for it to be profitable to attack. That it would be better to attack what they would move across the bridge on land before it gets to the bridge, or after it crosses the bridge, where the air defense is less capable.

I don't see the issue coming up unless the war escalates to a point that NATO becomes involved.
 
DaveXA said:
Just circling back to a thought on this, but if we were fully involved in the war, what I imagine we'd do if we really wanted to take the bridge out, we'd first take out their S-400s and other anti-air defenses before attacking the bridge.

I do have a thought though. Securing an intact bridge like that might make more tactical sense than destroying it. If the Ukranians could push the Russians back far enough that they'd have to cede control of the bridge, it might make sense to leave it alone.

That said, I wouldn't be shocked if the Russians are prepared to destroy it in the case of a withdrawal. Could turn into a game of chicken. Who flinches first?
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That fits in with what I think.
 
DaveXA said:
Just circling back to a thought on this, but if we were fully involved in the war, what I imagine we'd do if we really wanted to take the bridge out, we'd first take out their S-400s and other anti-air defenses before attacking the bridge.

I do have a thought though. Securing an intact bridge like that might make more tactical sense than destroying it. If the Ukranians could push the Russians back far enough that they'd have to cede control of the bridge, it might make sense to leave it alone.

That said, I wouldn't be shocked if the Russians are prepared to destroy it in the case of a withdrawal. Could turn into a game of chicken. Who flinches first?
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In addition, let's say if we were to use stealth to attack that target, the enemy would have to be actively looking for a stealth fighter/bomber. Meaning that they would have to had actual knowledge that they were en route because the B-2 has a RADAR Cross Section (RCS) of a bumble bee (0.0001square meters or 0.0001m2). For comparison, the F-18 has a RCS of 1m2.

The F-117 (RCS 0.003m2=humming bird) that was shot down during Allied Force was due to a combination of poor mission planning and luck. The Serbs were able to hit it because 117's had repeated their ingress into the target area several times and they were using spotters outside of Aviano AB, Italy to visually ID F-117 take-offs. They actually targeted him as his bomb bay doors were open, the other 3 117's that were with him were never targeted.
 
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I came across this odd thing on Twitter:



When I looked to see if they are for sale to anyone I found a similar product for NATO, for sale out of England:

NATO Explosive Hazards Recognition Playing Cards | Cadet Direct

These Explosive Hazards Recognition playing cards have been designed to increase a soldiers knowledge and allow them to recognise an important range of contemporary small arms in use with foreign forces and militias.
www.cadetdirect.com www.cadetdirect.com
 
SamAndreas said:
I don't know much about subs. However I would think the water there would be too shallow there for a sub to hide very well.

I think the bridge is too heavily defended for it to be profitable to attack. That it would be better to attack what they would move across the bridge on land before it gets to the bridge, or after it crosses the bridge, where the air defense is less capable.

I don't see the issue coming up unless the war escalates to a point that NATO becomes involved.
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What about Dolphins? Could we train them to plant plastic explosives on each pillar of the bridge?
 
DJ1BigTymer said:
In addition, let's say if we were to use stealth to attack that target, the enemy would have to be actively looking for a stealth fighter/bomber. Meaning that they would have to had actual knowledge that they were en route because the B-2 has a RADAR Cross Section (RCS) of a bumble bee (0.0001square meters or 0.0001m2). For comparison, the F-18 has a RCS of 1m2.

The F-117 (RCS 0.003m2=humming bird) that was shot down during Allied Force was due to a combination of poor mission planning and luck. The Serbs were able to hit it because 117's had repeated their ingress into the target area several times and they were using spotters outside of Aviano AB, Italy to visually ID F-117 take-offs. They actually targeted him as his bomb bay doors were open, the other 3 117's that were with him were never targeted.
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It seems to me even with the S-400 in play, it would be pretty difficult to shoot down a B-2. Although I'm not sure since Sam pointed out that the S-400 is capable of shooting them down. Interesting to see what happens with the bridge.
 
bclemms said:
What about Dolphins? Could we train them to plant plastic explosives on each pillar of the bridge?
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I don't know.

:LOL:

I don't know about each pillar anyway, those bridges have an awful lot of pillar's and they are big things. We might not have enough Dolphins.

They would also be quite likely encounter Russian Navy dolphins who might be guarding the bridges. I don't know if they saw our Dolphins planting explosives if they would think it was a fun game and help our Dolphins, or if they would become angry and try to kill our Dolphins.

It might help on that point if we were to train our Dolphins to speak Russian, and gave our Dolphins extra fish to give to the Russian dolphins to bribe them to look the other way.

Here's an NPR article about the Russian dolphins in the Black Sea.

 
A good article:

‘Welcome to hell’: Ukrainian airborne fighting Russia in Donbas woods​

SLOVYANSK, Donetsk Oblast — The battlefield stretches through the dense forest on the banks of the Siverskiy Donets River.

Soldiers of Ukraine’s 79th Airborne Brigade crawl out of sandy trenches preparing their 40-millimeter under-barrel rounds.

Barrels up, they aim at an unseen enemy line running some 300 meters away behind the wall of tall pines.

“Three, four, fire!”

The whistle and the blast merge with never-ending thunder of artillery barrage on the flanks.

“Those forks should know we’re still here and ready,” paratroopers say as they lay their weapons down to rest and seek cover again.

In this section of Donbas, as in many others, Ukrainian fighters rarely see their enemy’s face.

The largest and the bloodiest battle in Europe since World War II is in many ways a cutthroat duel between Russian and Ukrainian artillery. In this fight, Russia has a clear upper hand and is ensuring its gains by devastating every single Ukrainian line standing in its way.

The decisive battle has been going on for nearly 40 days. And Russia is slowly and painfully pressing through Ukrainian defenses, leaving villages and towns behind in ashes.

Now, amid recent Russian progress, the situation is reaching a critical point.

Yet, despite heavy losses, the Ukrainian military continues fighting hard, trying to wear the Russian military out. Surprisingly for the circumstances, the morale is still high.
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There's a lot more at the link:

kyivindependent.com

'Welcome to hell': Ukrainian airborne fighting Russia in Donbas woods

SLOVYANSK, Donetsk Oblast — The battlefield stretches through the dense forest on the banks of the Siverskiy Donets River. Soldiers of Ukraine’s 79th Airborne Brigade crawl out of sandy trenches preparing their 40-millimeter under-barrel rounds. Barrels up, they aim at an unseen enemy line...
kyivindependent.com kyivindependent.com
 
SamAndreas said:
If they used the big ones and they could hit it, it would sure damage the bridge, but could they hit the bridge?

That bridge is protected in layers of defensive systems that would include the newest electronic counter measures that the Russians have, which would more than likely render those guided bombs way less accurate than they would be if they were going after a less protected target.

The JDAM systems are only accurate enough for a narrow bridge if they can access GPS signal, and I would doubt that they could access that signal in such a protected zone because of the electronic counter measures that the Russians have in place there.

Do you remember in the 90's there was a lot of talk about the B-2's? They could have delivered the necessary JDAM bombs in the mid 90's because no one could see them coming on radar. That time has passed. The Russian S-300 defense systems were introduced in the mid 90's and at that point their radars were good enough that they pretty much rendered our B-2's obsolete. That was a big enough sea change that we stopped making the B-2's at that point. We only have 20 of them now.

Then the Russians went on to introduce the improved S-400, systems and that was that insofar as us having an invisible aircraft. Our B-2's could no longer hide from the Russians or the radars of anyone who is not a third world power.

They are protecting that bridge with the S-400 systems in depth. With that they can keep any of our aircraft that are big enough to deliver the largest JDAM bombs out of reach without us suffering a lot of loses of people and aircraft.
Click to expand...
I don't think the S-300 or even the S-400 make the B2 obsolete. Everything is classified of course, and its possible no one really knows the real truth because its not like we have access to S-400s to test against the B2, nor does anyone who has an S-400 have a B2 to test it against. That siad, It is very likely the S-400 could detect the B2, the question is how close does the S-400 have to be - if its 10-20 km that is only marginally useful because you would have to blanket a region with S400s in order to have a hope of shooting one down. The B2 would also know its being traced by the S-400.

Its also a question of cost, the B2 is like $1 billion/pop. For that amount of money you can buy maybe 8 F35s, also stealth granted not quite as good because of the shape of the airframe, but not nearly the payload or range.
 
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