Ukraine (48 Viewers)

[HoustonSaint68]

In other words, I don't take a side.

This, in a nutshell, is at the root of our disagreement with you.

You fail to see that you have the luxury of philosophically not taking a side because 80+ years ago the United States and Great Britain took a side — despite moral ambiguity and the conflict being “half a world away”.

 

[literature]

Rather, to try to understand both sides,

One side wants to kill and subjugate the other side to strengthen the unifying nationalistic theology it needs to continue funcitoning as a mafia state.

The other side would like the part of this process where they get raped, shot and dumped in a ditch to not happen.

 

[mjcouvi]

This, in a nutshell, is at the root of our disagreement with you.

You fail to see that you have the luxury of philosophically not taking a side because 80+ years ago the United States and Great Britain took a side — despite moral ambiguity and the conflict being “half a world away”.

Thankfully, I do have that luxury, and I'm not unaware of it. As an American, I don't take that luxury lightly, and I'm thankful for it.

It is definitely a matter of how we view history when we interpret present events. When I look at problems in the world I look first into myself, as in where did I go wrong? That attitude may seem strange to you, but to look inward is really when you discover how evil comes about.

Until you really listen to people, to the worst people of all, I doubt you'll understand. 80 years ago may seem like a long time to you, but it's not seen the same way by others.

 

[mjcouvi]

One side wants to kill and subjugate the other side to strengthen the unifying nationalistic theology it needs to continue funcitoning as a mafia state.

The other side would like the part of this process where they get raped, shot and dumped in a ditch to not happen.

If you think this sums it up, I'm sorry, there's probably hardly a starting point we could find to understand one another's views, barring being just stuck in a room with one another for a long period of time.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

When I look at problems in the world I look first into myself, as in where did I go wrong? That attitude may seem strange to you, but to look inward is really when you discover how evil comes about.

Of course that isn't strange. But (and I mean this respectfully and not snarkily), that is a very Philosophy 101 perspective and it's simply not enough. It is fantastic that you start consideration of important issues with the perspective that you claim. But true depth of thought requires one to overlay philosophical logic atop real life, consider it, AND THEN LIVE IT.

It is factual in my own life that wisdom didn't really start until I started waking up each day realizing that there was even more that I didn't know than I thought there was upon waking the morning before. But that can't immobilze you into curling up into a lazy and convenient ball of quivering moral uncertainty -- because we live in a world where people do horrible things to other people which no amount of "motive" can justify. And even the morally uncertain have to stand against that.

 

[CajunInVA]

Thankfully, I do have that luxury, and I'm not unaware of it. As an American, I don't take that luxury lightly, and I'm thankful for it.

It is definitely a matter of how we view history when we interpret present events. When I look at problems in the world I look first into myself, as in where did I go wrong? That attitude may seem strange to you, but to look inward is really when you discover how evil comes about.

Until you really listen to people, to the worst people of all, I doubt you'll understand. 80 years ago may seem like a long time to you, but it's not seen the same way by others.

If I recall correctly, a lot of your point of view may be informed by things that happened in Libya and perhaps some personal losses you experienced? If I’m wrong about this, I will delete this post.

Is it possible for you to see that the mistakes/missteps of Libya and Yemen doesn’t make our stance regarding Ukraine wrong. Do you believe, as Putin states, that Nazis are running Ukraine? That is a major stated point for his decision. So either you believe him or you think he is wrong and lying. In which case you are seemingly supporting his use of falsehoods to attack a sovereign nation.

Or, do you question the true sovereignty of Ukraine and its right to exist as an independent nation?

 

[Dragon]

If you see Putin's actions in a vacuum, sure, you're right.

I don't - I see history repeating itself. No wanna be "emperor" has ever stopped by their own accord. This is the sad fact especially in Europe.

Living in a country where Germany is one of our neighbors and where Russia tried to hang on to part of our territory after WW2 - took a couple of years to get them out. My grandfather spend more than a year in a german KZ camp and returned a broken man.

Having personal experience with the communist regimes in East Germany and Hungary in the 10 years before the fall of the Berlin wall as part of a youth democratic movement and seeing friends on the other side imprissoned or worse for their belief in democracy has taught me that waiting on dictators to "learn their lessons" is futile and only causes more misery and deaths.

So no - I have absolutely no illusions when it comes to either Putin and/or the Russian army

 

[mjcouvi]

Additionally, it is quite difficult to read folks remark so substantially and passionately about Russian-caused tragedies while they completely ignore current day tragedies, perpetuated by their own US government, hardly less violent.

It's a disassociation that, to me, is tragic. I think it would be wise to mind the tragedies that you support, or don't care about, before you start decrying those perpetuated by Putin.

 

[mjcouvi]

If I recall correctly, a lot of your point of view may be informed by things that happened in Libya and perhaps some personal losses you experienced? If I’m wrong about this, I will delete this post.

Is it possible for you to see that the mistakes/missteps of Libya and Yemen doesn’t make our stance regarding Ukraine wrong. Do you believe, as Putin states, that Nazis are running Ukraine? That is a major stated point for his decision. So either you believe him or you think he is wrong and lying. In which case you are seemingly supporting his use of falsehoods to attack a sovereign nation.

Or, do you question the true sovereignty of Ukraine and its right to exist as an independent nation?

All valid inquiries. The United States is the present day world empire. I've experienced no personal losses due to it, aside from tremendous sadness, seeing the plight of what the American war machine has caused.

I don't believe the American stance on Ukraine is wrong. Putin is wrong. I think he should be eliminated.

However, Americans, as a unit, have no moral authority in this conflict, seeing what American government has done, and I think that's my overriding point, but I'm open to being questioned more.

 

[0rion]

This entire situation is very deep. It's not based on one factor but it's many many factors over the span of decades. The west didn't cause this but at the same time we didn't do anything to avoid it. Putin didn't wake up one day and decide to invade Ukraine. He telegraphed it for years. We ignored those warnings.

 

[DaveXA]

Additionally, it is quite difficult to read folks remark so substantially and passionately about Russian-caused tragedies while they completely ignore current day tragedies, perpetuated by their own US government, hardly less violent.

It's a disassociation that, to me, is tragic. I think it would be wise to mind the tragedies that you support, or don't care about, before you start decrying those perpetuated by Putin.

Seriously? You either haven't been paying attention or are deliberately ignoring the vast posting histories of many of the participants of this thread. There's a long line of people critical of America's previous and current misdeeds. That doesn't mean we ignore injustices that are currently happening when we are in a position to do something about it. We're absolutely not doing this alone and almost all of our allies along with more than a few who have not always agreed with our past actions have supported Ukraine along with us.

 

[literature]

The western order, successful as it has been in defeating or containing the spread of genocidal totalitarian idiologies, sometimes produces an individual so divorced from the thought processes this order has opposed that the individual simply can't perceive a world in which malactors might not hold the same humanistic liberal values they do.

A symptom of success even if it is upsetting to unlookers

 

[mjcouvi]

This entire situation is very deep. It's not based on one factor but it's many many factors over the span of decades. The west didn't cause this but at the same time we didn't do anything to avoid it. Putin didn't wake up one day and decide to invade Ukraine. He telegraphed it for years. We ignored those warnings.

Thanks, this isn't a simple matter of simple cause ----> effect. It's deep and involves history that many of us probably don't even know.

 

[SoggyBottomBoy]

Putin is a bad guy, and I hope he dies, I think that'd be best. But one can hate Putin AND the US policy which has motivated Putin. It's not either/or. Human behavior isn't so simple.

Man, you keep reaching to try to spread blame. Talking as if the West brought this on themselves.

And acting like it's some noble attribute.

Nah. Putin hasn't been provoked into anything. He's the provoker. It's not anymore complicated than that.

 

[mjcouvi]

Seriously? You either haven't been paying attention or are deliberately ignoring the vast posting histories of many of the participants of this thread. There's a long line of people critical of America's previous and current misdeeds. That doesn't mean we ignore injustices that are currently happening when we are in a position to do something about it. We're absolutely not doing this alone and almost all of our allies along with more than a few who have not always agreed with our past actions have supported Ukraine along with us.

I didn't mean an attack on anyone, I'm sorry. It came off in a way I didn't mean, but in general I do see a lack of awareness amongst Americans regarding the atrocities their government commits. I actually don't think that about many of the posters here, I don't have negative feelings towards people here, I enjoy your thoughts, otherwise I wouldn't use this place to share what I think. My thinking is opposed oftentimes, I hope you can accept it, and think about it genuinely.