Ukraine (25 Viewers)

[saintmdterps]

I don’t want to be snarky because I do believe you’re coming from a sincere place…but perhaps you should have gone to class because you’re kinda talking out of both sides of your mouth and arguing illogically.

So above you say “I don’t know if the West should stay out of it….” but in an earlier post you said:

”I do not pretend to know any good solution except I would like those who govern me to stay out of it.…This territory, half a world away, is not our business and I hope the voters elect someone who will say "STOP!"”

I absolutely HATE playing “gotcha” games here but you must know that what’s happening in Ukraine is really serious business and you’re coming here and stating a position diametrically opposed to many very intelligent posters here — an opinion that you assert is based in philosophy thus presuming consistency and logic — but then you argue inconsistent positions in different posts, play fast and loose with history to imply moral equivalency, and conflate importantly distinct concepts (like “blame” with “errors in judgment based on imperfect information“).

I honestly do believe your sincerity on this subject and can respect that you have a different opinion — sincerely-held and lived pacifism rightly earns respect.

But, similarly, you simply must recognize from the pages and pages of comments here the strong emotional connection others have regarding what’s happening over there. And I think that requires you to bring a bit more logic and consistency to your argument than you have thus far.

The US has taken its lumps, and rightfully so, on may occasions when it has meddled in the affairs of other nations. However, this is a case of "meddling" This is a case of intervening on behalf of a country that has asked the US to do so in no uncertain terms to help it fend of an invasion by a neighboring country that is ruled by a psychopath.

The US can and should intervene here. In 1939 when one country ruled by a psychopath invaded a neighboring country it precipitated a war killing 70 million people. Stop Putin here in Ukraine, and like any bully given a bloody nose, he'll think twice before he tries to push around another neighbor. Don't stop him here and he's only encouraged.

 

[saintmdterps]

I didn't mean an attack on anyone, I'm sorry. It came off in a way I didn't mean, but in general I do see a lack of awareness amongst Americans regarding the atrocities their government commits. I actually don't think that about many of the posters here, I don't have negative feelings towards people here, I enjoy your thoughts, otherwise I wouldn't use this place to share what I think. My thinking is opposed oftentimes, I hope you can accept it, and think about it genuinely.

We can rattle off a long list of US atrocities, both at home and abroad.

In no way has the US encouraged Putin to act aggressively toward Ukraine. Perhaps the previous administration would have turned a blind eye, but I'll not go sown the road of politics here. Putin should be stopped, end of story.

 

[mjcouvi]

The US has taken its lumps, and rightfully so, on may occasions when it has meddled in the affairs of other nations. However, this is a case of "meddling" This is a case of intervening on behalf of a country that has asked the US to do so in no uncertain terms to help it fend of an invasion by a neighboring country that is ruled by a psychopath.

The US can and should intervene here. In 1939 when one country ruled by a psychopath invaded a neighboring country it precipitated a war killing 70 million people. Stop Putin here in Ukraine, and like any bully given a bloody nose, he'll think twice before he tries to push around another neighbor. Don't stop him here and he's only encouraged.

Putin should be killed. That's my personal opinion.

I just feel, to get to the essence of this problem, you should explore, in a fundamental way, what is your personal responsibility?

Paying your taxes? Vote? Is that all? For others to make decisions for you? Is that what you've made yourself into?

You are a part of a cooperative. Where does your responsibility begin and end? What part of your involvement in this society, in this government, do you take responsibility for?

The answer is not clear, but the question is worth asking.

 

[efil4stnias]

I didn't mean an attack on anyone, I'm sorry. It came off in a way I didn't mean, but in general I do see a lack of awareness amongst Americans regarding the atrocities their government commits. I actually don't think that about many of the posters here, I don't have negative feelings towards people here, I enjoy your thoughts, otherwise I wouldn't use this place to share what I think. My thinking is opposed oftentimes, I hope you can accept it, and think about it genuinely.

What atrocities are you referring to?

 

[mjcouvi]

What atrocities are you referring to?

Just in modern time, it's mostly Yemen. But if you go back further you could contribute unknown millions of dead people to US policy. It's ugly, sanctions starving people and not allowing them medicine, giving the sauds bombs, training, fuel, intelligence to kill people in Yemen. What's happened in Ukraine so far is nothing like how the US has pulverized the Middle East. Putin is bad, yeah, but recognize what the US government has done, or I find your feelings on Putin shallow.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

If I could lighten things up some (or not)...

I'd just like to remind you guys that you are going back and forth with the person who went into a thread about an MCU movie to say he doesn't like MCU movies to only admit he didn't see said MCU movies...

That being said, please carry on (or not).

 

[mjcouvi]

If I could lighten things up some (or not)...

I'd just like to remind you guys that you are going back and forth with the person who went into a thread about an MCU movie to say he doesn't like MCU movies to only admit he didn't see said MCU movies...

That being said, please carry on (or not).

Dude, you're outing me, but there are levels of seriousness, and I hope others recognize that. Marvel comic talk...not serious. The subject matter in this thread is serious to me.

 

[Tapxe]

Additionally, it is quite difficult to read folks remark so substantially and passionately about Russian-caused tragedies while they completely ignore current day tragedies, perpetuated by their own US government, hardly less violent.

It's a disassociation that, to me, is tragic. I think it would be wise to mind the tragedies that you support, or don't care about, before you start decrying those perpetuated by Putin.

It's quite the same difficulty for some to read you call Biden an idiot while claiming Putin is very intelligent. Then you say we shouldn't get involved because it's not in our backyard. I truly have no idea what or who you support from your positions as they seem to be politically expedient rather than based on concern for people. Your statements are not dissimilar to those of a Russian think tank.

I like this explanation of what's going on, seems to lack the usual western bias I see.

I'm not saying it's justified. In fact I think it is not justified. I'm just trying to figure out why this is happening and what might happen next. People become so blinded by Putin's evil they don't want to imagine him as brilliant. His rise to power is no Hitler story, but it's impressive. He has, in a way, been maneuvering for this since he was a child.

And our idiot President goes and says Putin CANNOT remain in power, only escalating the situation. I thought we wanted to end the conflict Biden, not threaten the crazy guy, which can only make matters worse.

The Putin position. You think it’s not worth exploring, understanding? US policy would be wise to fully understand why he’s doing this, and how US policy contributed to his reasoning. Many people would like to just dismiss Putin as crazy. That attitude is so destructive.

I don't recall anyone but you dismissing Putin as crazy. FWIW, the US intelligence agency, which has been very accurate up to this point and is much better informed than you, is currently advising the 'idiot' to great effect. You choose to view it differently which is your right, but it doesn't make you correct.

So to sum up, the idiot is stoking the crazy brilliant killer maniac forced to invade and murder by evil bad US actions, but we should not get involved despite the fact that the brilliant invader will likely not stop. Oh and please let's continue to ignore that brilliant leader is being pushed back by support of Ukraine by the western biased intelligence and arms as it doesn't support what you want us to think.

Maybe you should reconsider where you went wrong again.

 

[mjcouvi]

It's quite the same difficulty for some to read you call Biden an idiot while claiming Putin is very intelligent. Then you say we shouldn't get involved because it's not in our backyard. I truly have no idea what or who you support from your positions as they seem to be politically expedient rather than based on concern for people. Your statements are not dissimilar to those of a Russian think tank.







I don't recall anyone but you dismissing Putin as crazy. FWIW, the US intelligence agency, which has been very accurate up to this point and is much better informed than you, is currently advising the 'idiot' to great effect. You choose to view it differently which is your right, but it doesn't make you correct.

So to sum up, the idiot is stoking the crazy brilliant killer maniac forced to invade and murder by evil bad US actions, but we should not get involved despite the fact that the brilliant invader will likely not stop. Oh and please let's continue to ignore that brilliant leader is being pushed back by support of Ukraine by the western biased intelligence and arms as it doesn't support what you want us to think.

Maybe you should reconsider where you went wrong again.

Wow, you really went in deep there, maybe I'll formulate a response, maybe not. However, just a superficial read leads me to believe you have great points.

 

[mjcouvi]

It's quite the same difficulty for some to read you call Biden an idiot while claiming Putin is very intelligent. Then you say we shouldn't get involved because it's not in our backyard. I truly have no idea what or who you support from your positions as they seem to be politically expedient rather than based on concern for people. Your statements are not dissimilar to those of a Russian think tank.

Ok, here it is. I don't think I called Biden an idiot while claiming Putin intelligent. That's not even how my mind processes things.

If my words make you unsure of who I support, then I'm speaking right, as I see it. My words similarity to a Russian think tank? -- I don't know how to address this????

 

[saint-58]

Putin is bad, yeah, but recognize what the US government has done, or I find your feelings on Putin shallow.

With statements like this you are making it very hard to stay civil.

 

[mjcouvi]

With statements like this you are making it very hard to stay civil.

Ok, I get it. Are you willing to explore US modern atrocities or not? I don't know how to understand Putin's atrocities without understanding my own governments atrocities first. How do you order your distaste for attrocities?

 

[Tapxe]

Ok, here it is. I don't think I called Biden an idiot while claiming Putin intelligent. That's not even how my mind processes things.

If my words make you unsure of who I support, then I'm speaking right, as I see it. My words similarity to a Russian think tank? -- I don't know how to address this????

I posted your words. You said it. If you didn't mean that it's on you.

So your only goal in posting here is to make everyone wonder what you mean? Seems similar to a gaslighting move, so you'll pardon me if I stop considering anything you say as worthy of reading.

 

[Dragon]

Putin should be killed. That's my personal opinion.

I just feel, to get to the essence of this problem, you should explore, in a fundamental way, what is your personal responsibility?

Paying your taxes? Vote? Is that all? For others to make decisions for you? Is that what you've made yourself into?

You are a part of a cooperative. Where does your responsibility begin and end? What part of your involvement in this society, in this government, do you take responsibility for?

The answer is not clear, but the question is worth asking.

Simple - Speak up against oppression and injustice - whereever you encounter it - at home, among friends or abroad. Try to help in whatever way you can, be it only by moral support or something more substantial.

 

[mjcouvi]

I posted your words. You said it. If you didn't mean that it's on you.

So your only goal in posting here is to make everyone wonder what you mean? Seems similar to a gaslighting move, so you'll pardon me if I stop considering anything you say as worthy of reading.

Ok, I honestly find this a shocking response that has nothing to do with what I posted.