USA Today article of analysis of Saints penalty disparity (1 Viewer)

gtaz21

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Yeah, here it goes ... I TOLD YOU SO.

This article is exactly what stat I was saying I wanted to see. What is the comparison between Saints opponents' number of penalties when they play the Saints vs their number of penalties when they don't play the Saints. Also, what kind of impact are those penalties having in the games? In this article, a sportswriter has done just what I asked for. He went to an analytics company and got them to crunch the numbers. Verdict? The disparity of Saints penalties vs their opponents is the largest its been in their opponents favor since they started keep track of the data 20 years ago. What else? Guess who the least penalized team is in the NFL? Yep, that's right ... whoever is playing the Saints that week. Which is what I thought. It doesn't matter whether you're one of the most penalized teams in the NFL or one of the least penalized teams in the NFL. If you're playing the Saints, you will be the least penalized team in the NFL for a week. That is proof-positive that the NFL is shafting the Saints week-in-and-week-out.

Also, Saints opponents get the most first downs via penalty than the opponents of any other team in the NFL. That answers the question of what kind of impact are the penalties having on the game. There can be no bigger impact than repeatedly extending drives for teams.

The only question remaining to be answered is, WHY? It could be revenge for introducing the PI challenge to the game. It could be that the NFL doesn't want the Saints in the Super Bowl. It could go way back to Bountygate. Or, it could be all of the above. I don't care. I just think it sucks.
 

SoggyBottomBoy

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I said as much... There is no consistency in calls... but I watch more than just Saints football... and that's a problem in every game. I watch it every week in every game... this weekend, I watched the Refs decide the Chargers / Denver game with a gifted last second PI call against the Chargers with 3 secs left on an un-catch-able jump ball.... those types of plays and calls have been inconsistent across the board all year...

I am not saying that the Refs are not bad, or inconsistent... They are.

I am saying that raw number of penalties for or against us doesn't mean much without context and substance...

And from what I have seen... we are very undisciplined in regards to penalties, we do commit a ton of legitimate penalties, and our opponents have to play near mistake free football to beat us...

That's just as much as logical deduction to explain these numbers as ... "the refs are just out to get us".

That's all I am saying.
It doesn't have to be an either/or. Both can be going on - horrible officiating in general and an inordinate unbalance of calls between us and our opponents. The lack of holding calls against our stout D line verses holding calls on our good offensive line really reeks of bias.
 
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insidejob

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It doesn't have to be an either/or. Both can be going on - horrible officiating in general and an inordinate unbalance of calls between us and our opponents. The lack of holding calls against our stout line versed holding calls on our good offensive line really reeks of bias.
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To the guys that are talking about small sample sizes, I understand and agree. But the fact is the staggering number of big plays taken away by penalties against the Saints, both offensively and defensively. In particular, the three game stretch Atl-Tampa-Car was gruesome. Is it just a coincidence that most of the flags came on big plays? Again, you could make an argument here about sample size and even cause-effect.
But then there were calls that have nothing to do with statistics. For example, the two absurd OPI called on Cook and Thomas. Both reviewed, both upheld. A big play and a 2 point conversion. Even the commentators were easy that they should have been reversed. And even by the absurdly strict NFL standards for reversing, they should have been reversed (clear and obvious wrong call, the defenders initiated contacts).
Another example, against Tampa, Cam Jordan being hold from behind while running free at Winston for a drive-ending sack. Cam comes to a stop because is held. No other is within 5-10 yards from them, so the holding is clearly visible in real time. But the refs call a PI against PJ Wiliams!!
So maybe your statistical argument has a point, but couple it with blatantly biased calls, and you have the whole picture.
That exact Tampa play burns in my mind and ultimately tells the tale why statistics will never be an accurate representation of what we see. There are so many penalties that are uncalled on the opponents we play.

I agree, this happens to all teams on occasion but our calls and non-calls are disproportionate compared to the rest of the league. At the end of the day, something just doesn’t seem right.

We don’t all fit in the conspiracy theory/nfl is totally rigged but there is a large number of people who see a discrepancy in calls and the statistics are trending in a direction that seems to confirm what we see.
 

DaveXA

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I am not missing it. I agree they can be manipulated, I just do not believe that they are. Moaning about it seems intellectually dishonest to me, because none of these posters are going to complain if we win the superbowl.

It seems really simple, either someone has the capacity and power to influence the outcome of nfl games and they are doing it, in which case the league is basically scripted and our 2009 superbowl victory is a farce.

Or there is no conspiracy behind it and the mistakes and disparity is due to chance. No one even seems to be considering this. Is this the biggest disparity in the league? Is it the biggest one ever, is it bigger than the biggest disparity in most years? All of these seem like valid questions that no one is even attempting to answer. Instead we keep harping on about refs and pass interference like a broken record.
Hell, I'll still complain about ridiculously slanted officiating if it's warranted. The point isn't whether the officiating is weighted. The real point is that officials are rarely, if ever, held accountable for poor performance. Neither the officials themselves, nor the NFL are holding anyone accountable for incorrect calls. They're inconsistent at best, and malicious at worst. I'm actually a bit worried that some of these officials have been compromised by either their own gambling or someone paying them off to get desired results. Fixing outcomes would be too obvious, but slanting scores to cover or miss point spreads are easier to manipulate.

And for people arguing it can't happen, it has happened in the NBA, and it wouldn't shock me if it's happening in the NFL.

Regardless, it's obvious that there are wildly varied interpretations of the pi replays. And I firmly believe the reason for this is officials resent being put on the spot and having their calls questioned. Their goal seems to be that they want the rule to go away.

All I want are fairly called games. I just don't see that happening from where I sit
 

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If you got 9 sacks in a game, I think that might be an indicator that they absolutely didn't hold.
I saw at the very least, 3 uncalled holds on Cam Jordan and 2 on Davenport. Maybe they played through those holds, but they should have been penalties nonetheless. Pretty sure I recall one of our guys getting literally tackled from behind when trying to get to Ryan, yet no hold.

Yet, there are holds called on us for some of the exact same things the Falcons OL did. It's not called evenly. That much is clear. I don't claim to know their motivations, but something is clearly influencing how they're calling games.

So I completely disagree with your assertion.
 

insidejob

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I saw at the very least, 3 uncalled holds on Cam Jordan and 2 on Davenport. Maybe they played through those holds, but they should have been penalties nonetheless. Pretty sure I recall one of our guys getting literally tackled from behind when trying to get to Ryan, yet no hold.

Yet, there are holds called on us for some of the exact same things the Falcons OL did. It's not called evenly. That much is clear. I don't claim to know their motivations, but something is clearly influencing how they're calling games.

So I completely disagree with your assertion.
I saw the same thing. Just finished rewatching the game and they were holding nearly every time we got pressure but didn't get the sack. Hendrickson was straight up tackled on one of Ryan's runs.
 
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interesting conclusion.

and one that bears delving into.

The one thing that could make this ALL go away - the NFL/Refs pull back on this current tack, and we go thru the playoffs relatively penalty free and win the whole thing. Two things get accomplished...1) this ref bias narrative simply vanishes and 2) the NFL reaps the marketing of the storylines that would accompany the Saints run to the title.
I don't want their help. I don't want their fairness. I want them to keep cheating to try to beat us so that bile in their throats chokes them on the final day when we've won in spite of their best efforts. I want them to have to face whatever god they pray to at the end of the day and answer for why they weren't only petty and spiteful in life, but also impotent and ineffective and unable, despite the power granted to them, to end that pesky little squad from the middle of the swamp.

I don't want it to go away. I want it to live forever in infamy.
 

insidejob

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I dont think so. Because at the end of it all, doing so would absolutely ruin New Orleans' ability to do anything in the NFL ever again.

They have us by our Lutz.
I think our "Refs, You blow!!!" chant from the Carolina game carried over into the Atlanta game in how we got officiated, TBH.
 

insidejob

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I don't want their help. I don't want their fairness. I want them to keep cheating to try to beat us so that bile in their throats chokes them on the final day when we've won in spite of their best efforts. I want them to have to face whatever god they pray to at the end of the day and answer for why they weren't only petty and spiteful in life, but also impotent and ineffective and unable, despite the power granted to them, to end that pesky little squad from the middle of the swamp.

I don't want it to go away. I want it to live forever in infamy.
Not me. I'll take fairly officiated games for the rest of the season and playoffs so we can actually see this team's full potential.
 

ilvdsnts

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So I took it a step further and I looked at the yards per game we are being penalized. We have always had a top 5 offense under CSP, and usually 1, 2, or 3. This year we are 13th in total offense(lowest ever under CSP). We are being penalized 68.3 yards per game, the Saints avg during CSPs tenure is 51.9 ypg. A difference of 16.4 ypg. How much of a difference does 16.4 ypg make, if we had those 16.4 ypg back we would rank 7th in total offense instead of 13th. If we were being penalized at this year's league average, we would have yet another 8 ypg on top of those 16.4, bringing us all the way to 4th in total offense.
 

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One can look at the absurd amount of penalties and just point at the Saints as an undisciplined football team.

“Undisciplined teams” do not go 10-2. We are still playing complementary football and coming up big in the clutch. What’s really the true reason for these flags?
I really believe we're not any more or less disciplined than any other team. If you look at the procedural penalties like false starts and offsides and such, they're pretty well within the norm. When it comes to holding and subjective penalties, only then do our numbers look out of the norm. Curious when the disparity is so great among the more subjective penalties.
 

jrdbrn

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I have watched every single game. What's your point though? I think we have been on the wrong end of some calls, but it doesn't appear to be some massive conspiracy. Refs are human they make mistakes. Some of them may even be corrupt and we should try point that out where we can. But threads suggesting some kind of conspiracy by the NFL against the saints seems asinine.

Why watch football if you believe the league is actively intervening in games? And why bring it up if you don't believe it is a conspiracy?
The problem is not the calls against the Saints, it's the lack of calls for the other side. Every team commits a penalty... every play. You cannot call it every play because the game will never end. They just refuse to call fairly.
 

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The problem is not the calls against the Saints, it's the lack of calls for the other side. Every team commits a penalty... every play. You cannot call it every play because the game will never end. They just refuse to call fairly.
You are wasting your breath, with an individual, that does not see the point of the article to begin with.
I have watched every single game. What's your point though? I think we have been on the wrong end of some calls, but it doesn't appear to be some massive conspiracy. Refs are human they make mistakes. Some of them may even be corrupt and we should try point that out where we can. But threads suggesting some kind of conspiracy by the NFL against the saints seems asinine.

Why watch football if you believe the league is actively intervening in games? And why bring it up if you don't believe it is a conspiracy?
Where is there a conspiracy being said? The article and the stats provided are FACTS, not a proven CONSPIRACY! Why are YOU bringing up the conspiracy angle? Who the heck knows, why there is so much of a variance? But it is what it is and it needs to be addressed and fixed.
 
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