Venezuela, don’t stop, get it get it (1 Viewer)

insidejob

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Lotta people claiming the elections were fraudulent with a big goose egg as far as evidence goes.
What would you call evidence? Is the company that was responsible for the voting machines coming out and saying they were rigged not evidence?

El seems to have laid out a bit in the previous post as well.
 

simeon58

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Nothing about the Maduro/Chavez government has been legit. From buying votes to neutering the Venezuelan congress. They have their courts stacked in order to carry out their orders, and silence the opposition. They also have their own faux congress set up to pass their shirt house laws.
Except that millions of Venezuelans are staunch Chavistas, but it seems that doesn't matter to you.

Any protests made against Chavez/Maduro are swiftly silenced by the National Guard, with hundreds killed or falsely imprisoned.
This is false and easily verified. They are free to protest, and they do very often.

Throw in Maduro barring any opposition from running, yet he still continues to hold elections (where no credible observers are allowed, and the company setting up the election booths says the thing is a fraud).
The company made that claim about an earlier election. They were not used for the presidential election, and the presidential election was heavily monitored as I sourced multiple times in this thread.

Also, the factions within the opposition boycotted the election. They were urged to participate, and many split to participate. The opposition is heavily fragmented.

If this were about oil we would have been there a decade ago when the price of oil was higher.
Does the coup attempt in 2002 count as "being there"? We've been meddling with Venezuela for well over a decade.
 

TulsaSaint

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As someone who's spent the last ten years writing a dissertation/book based, in part, on approximately 20,000 newspaper/magazine articles from a variety of Brazilian publications, I do indeed say so.

With very few exceptions, Latin American media outlets are controlled by a few rich families in each country who use their platform to advocate for their own political and material interests. Objective reporting has never been widely embraced in Latin America (or here, for that matter, but that's another issue), and outlets like Clarín, Globo, and dozens of others have routinely made it their practice to collaborate with right wing dictators.
 

simeon58

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With very few exceptions, Latin American media outlets are controlled by a few rich families in each country who use their platform to advocate for their own political and material interests. Objective reporting has never been widely embraced in Latin America (or here, for that matter, but that's another issue), and outlets like Clarín, Globo, and dozens of others have routinely made it their practice to collaborate with right wing dictators.
I know this was the case through the 80's, but I wasn't sure if it continued. I assumed it did given US hegemony through the 90's; however, I thought maybe there was a shift in the 2000's with the Bolivarian Revolution.

I don't understand why people are citing the opinion of transparently US subservient governments as evidence that Maduro is a dictator, and that his election was fraudulent. Especially Bolsonaro. He's a forking tyrant. The fact that these countries are aligning gives me further reason to believe it's a sham. Macron aligning is hilarious considering his approval rating is like 18%. The idea that he represents French opinion is ludicrous.
 

TulsaSaint

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Nothing about the Maduro/Chavez government has been legit. From buying votes to neutering the Venezuelan congress. They have their courts stacked in order to carry out their orders, and silence the opposition. They also have their own faux congress set up to pass their shirt house laws.
Some truth in here, mixed with a lot of falsehood. Yes, Maduro has used questionable, even illegitimate, means to remain in power, particularly after the opposition's victory in the National Assembly. The 2017 constitutional assembly referendum was particularly problematic, and the 2018 presidential election scarcely less so. Few people deny this.

Perhaps the courts are stacked. I fail to see how that's any different from the Republicans holding the Supreme Court hostage for a year so that they could stack Scalia's seat with a conservative, instead of Merrick Garland. I'm pretty sure that does not justify Nancy Pelosi declaring herself President tomorrow.

Also, retroactively ascribing all Maduro's mistakes to Chávez just isn't logically sound. Jimmy Carter in 2012 said that Venezuela had one of the fairest and most transparent electoral systems in the world. The fact of the matter is that, buoyed by high oil prices and revolutionary social programs, chavismo enjoyed strong support Chávez's death and drops in oil prices.

Any protests made against Chavez/Maduro are swiftly silenced by the National Guard, with hundreds killed or falsely imprisoned.
This is only one side of the story. Interesting how you want to leave out the opposition's violence. If violence is bad, isn't it also bad when the opposition employs it? There are no saints when it comes to violence in Venezuelan politics.

Throw in Maduro barring any opposition from running, yet he still continues to hold elections (where no credible observers are allowed, and the company setting up the election booths says the thing is a fraud).
Maduro does not barr opposition from running. The opposition boycotts so that they can retroactively claim the results are illegitimate. It would be like the Democrats boycotting elections over Republican voter ID laws and then claiming that the elections are illegitimate. No, you chose to sit out.

Top it off with the opposition party Maduro claiming he is the real President when the real congress doesn’t recognize him (because of the aforementioned crap), I don’t believe we are wrong for following the Lima Group in not backing Maduro. He made his bed, and now he can sleep in it.
The opposition is claiming this with no legal basis whatsover, as I showed in an earlier post about the Constitution. If they want to advocate for a coup, go ahead, but don't pretend you're keeping the law.

We are on the right side of history on this one. This isn’t a George Bush WMD situation as nobody outside of China, Syria, Iran, Turkey, Mexico, and Russia recognize the Maduro regime as anything but bad actors.
Regardless of whether Maduro is a "bad actor," that doesn't mean the opposition is a good actor. If you think being on the right side of history means going back to a Venezuela in which a tiny elite uses oil wealth to enrich themselves while most of the population lives in poverty (and if things are like that now, they were also like that in 1997), except that now the oil will likely be sold off from PDVSA to private (foreign) companies instead of used to fund social programs, well, that's your call.

If this were about oil we would have been there a decade ago when the price of oil was higher.
We were. Remember that coup attempt in 2002 that the United States recognized? And we were working ever since to destabilize the government. It's just that only now are enough Venezuelans fed up enough that there's the internal support (or at least tolerance) for blatant American meddling.

Having lived in Venezuela, and having many friends still living there, I feel horrible for them having had to live there over the last 19+ years. That economy has gone to shirt, and it’s incredible how nothing has improved.
First, are you friends living in barrios? I'm going to guess that they're middle- and upper-class folks who are indignant that for the last 20 years, the government worked more for poor, black and brown people than for them. The same type of folks who supported a coup in Brazil and voted for a fascist.

Second, the situation right now, brought on in no small measure by anti-chavistas taking their money out of the country, foreign investors trying to sabotage it, and the US applying sanctions, as well as the country's decades-long sole dependence on oil (something that transcends party and ideology in the Venezuelan petro-state) is no indication that nothing changed. I could give you indicators until I'm blue in the face showing how much life improved for the poor and working class under Chávez.
 

SystemShock

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As someone who's spent the last ten years writing a dissertation/book based, in part, on approximately 20,000 newspaper/magazine articles from a variety of Brazilian publications, I do indeed say so.
I guess you are the authority on the subject and everyone else is lying, or doesn't know what they are talking about.

With very few exceptions, Latin American media outlets are controlled by a few rich families in each country who use their platform to advocate for their own political and material interests. Objective reporting has never been widely embraced in Latin America (or here, for that matter, but that's another issue), and outlets like Clarín, Globo, and dozens of others have routinely made it their practice to collaborate with right wing dictators.
You sure it is "right-wing" the term you want to use?
 
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El Caliente

El Caliente

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You can’t stand another country having control and benefiting from its own natural resources. Sounds like you’ve been listening to a familiar psychopathic war criminal.

No, not at all. I am not a fan of this administration, or the clowns running it.

Having lived in Venezuela from 2001-2003, and having made friends with people in all walks of life and in all social classes over there, it has been a hard 18 years. I feel bad that the government has been using the poor as their pawns, as if this were some game of chess.

I can’t speak to what is happening in other countries as I am unfamiliar with what is happening in those places, but I treasure my time living in Venezuela (and in Tijuana) as it gave me a first hand account of what those people go through, and how they aren’t just some words in a book.
 

simeon58

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No, not at all. I am not a fan of this administration, or the clowns running it.

Having lived in Venezuela from 2001-2003, and having made friends with people in all walks of life and in all social classes over there, it has been a hard 18 years. I feel bad that the government has been using the poor as their pawns, as if this were some game of chess.

I can’t speak to what is happening in other countries as I am unfamiliar with what is happening in those places, but I treasure my time living in Venezuela (and in Tijuana) as it gave me a first hand account of what those people go through, and how they aren’t just some words in a book.
So why are you parroting their position to privatize and control their oil reserves through forceful intervention? They aren’t just innocuous “clowns”. These men, especially Bolton (and now Elliot Abrams joined the team), are dangerous murderers with a history of support for genocide and atrocities to prove it.

It is an uncontroversial fact that the Chavez regime made life better for the poor in Venezuela, as verified by Tulsa above, and many other independent sources. Your deflection to your personal experience has no bearing on the discussion. If you cared about Venezuelans, you’d at least consider some of the things Tulsa and I have brought to the discussion; however, you’ve thus far refused to even entertain that your support for what’s transparently imperialist resource grabbing may cause a catastrophe for Venezuelans. In fact, it’s likely that it will be catastrophic if Bolton has his way, and you can learn about the likelihood of a catastrophe by reading some history books on US interventionism that you seem to disdain.
 

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