Venezuela election controversy discussion (1 Viewer)

SystemShock

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It is an uncontroversial fact that the Chavez regime made life better for the poor in Venezuela, as verified by Tulsa above, and many other independent sources. .
Ask Tulsa and other independent sources about Venezuela's rate of inflation the past 10 years.
 

lapaz

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Who and what will take over Venezuela's government if Maduro resigns? If they guarantee Maduro a rich retirement and safety, he might willingly resign.
 
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El Caliente

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I honestly don’t care what you and Tulsa have gathered from years of education. Having lived there myself, and working among the poorest people in Machiques, Corro, San Francisco, and other destitute areas of western Venezuela, I have seen how the people have been played by Chavez and Maduro.

It was an enlightening experience, but don’t think that the rich are the only ones with a media outlet. Chavez and Maduro both have a weekly radio program, and have tv stations parroting their message. To think that the rich are the only ones driving a narrative would be obscene. Both sides are.

I don’t know how Chavez and Maduro’s policies can be viewed as helping the poor, middle class, or wealthy. The only people that are benefiting from those policies are those in the government. It’s comical watching people defend their policies when we see inflation skyrocket, their resources are given to China and other countries to repay debt that Chavez and Maduro built up. These are bad policies for everyone.
 

simeon58

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Ask Tulsa and other independent sources about Venezuela's rate of inflation the past 10 years.
I don’t need to ask about your straw man “but muh inflation” argument. I understand what’s behind the economic downturn in Venezuela.

What you don’t seem to understand is that your unsubstantiated claims about a fraudulent election and fudged voting numbers are enabling the US government to shirt all over another country of people who overwhelmingly don’t want us there. That’s what’s important, and that’s exactly what you don’t seem to care about.

394B3222-81D3-4544-9A57-ED42A3CADAB8.jpeg5C05A339-C8BB-42D2-A8C8-1A3DA76E1729.jpeg

I have a question for you. Do you think the war in Iraq was a mistake?
 

simeon58

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I honestly don’t care what you and Tulsa have gathered from years of education. Having lived there myself, and working among the poorest people in Machiques, Corro, San Francisco, and other destitute areas of western Venezuela, I have seen how the people have been played by Chavez and Maduro.

It was an enlightening experience, but don’t think that the rich are the only ones with a media outlet. Chavez and Maduro both have a weekly radio program, and have tv stations parroting their message. To think that the rich are the only ones driving a narrative would be obscene. Both sides are.

I don’t know how Chavez and Maduro’s policies can be viewed as helping the poor, middle class, or wealthy. The only people that are benefiting from those policies are those in the government. It’s comical watching people defend their policies when we see inflation skyrocket, their resources are given to China and other countries to repay debt that Chavez and Maduro built up. These are bad policies for everyone.
Lol Nobody cares about your enlightening experience, dude. I’ll listen to what Venezuelans have to say. But keep deflecting away to your wonderful journey through Venezuela and San Francisco, while not substantively addressing anything I said.
 

mt15

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This is veering toward personal attacks. Get back to discussing policies or we need to close the thread.
 

tomwaits

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So the US gets upset about supposed Russian Facebook ads interfering in our election process and this is an egregious violation that we just can't stand for, but then the US government openly pronounces someone else is president in another country.

Not to mention installing regimes in countless other countries, arming Al Quaeda in Syria, and assisting Saudi Arabia commit genocide in Yemen.
 

SystemShock

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I don’t need to ask about your straw man “but muh inflation” argument.
How is inflation a strawman? According to the IMF, the rate of inflation in Venezuela the last 10 years is 10 million % . Yes, 10 million %. The estimate in 2018 alone is that inflation rose 1 million %. And they just keep issuing new currency with less zeroes. And guess who's getting really screwed? The people who always gets screwed over high rates of inflation, poor people.

I understand what’s behind the economic downturn in Venezuela.
Do you?

What you don’t seem to understand
Child, please.

is that your unsubstantiated claims about a fraudulent election and fudged voting numbers
They aren't "my claims" only.

are enabling the US government to shirt all over another country of people who overwhelmingly don’t want us there. That’s what’s important, and that’s exactly what you don’t seem to care about.
To be fair, but for a few instances, no one wants the U.S. anywhere in that capacity. This time, however, it is not the U.S.' initiative. Other Ibero-American countries are in the process of enacting economic sanctions as well. For the record, I am not a big fan of blanket economic sanctions

I have a question for you. Do you think the war in Iraq was a mistake?
Let's not try to find equivalencies, shall we? Let's stick to the topic at hand.
 
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El Caliente

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The US isn’t installing any regime in Venezuela. The real Venezuelan National Assembly installed Guaidó as interim President. The people of Venezuela want this.

Hell, the US is the last to the party on this one. We aren’t providing military backing (yet), we just aren’t recognizing Maduro as the legitimate President (because the elections were a fraud).

I’m not sure how anyone can take themselves seriously when they say “the people of Venezuela voted for more of the Maduro diet.” I mean, I guess some people might be a gluten for punishment, but I can’t believe an entire nation is about dat life son.
 

SystemShock

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So the US gets upset about supposed Russian Facebook ads interfering in our election process and this is an egregious violation that we just can't stand for, but then the US government openly pronounces someone else is president in another country.
No.
What's happening here, the U.S. has recognized Guaido as interim president, along with a substantial number of OAS countries.
 

superchuck500

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There are two main reasons why, blinded by its opposition to Trump, the left is getting the Venezuelan crisis all wrong.

First, American leftists clearly see Venezuela as a Cold War-style, left vs. right struggle in which they must support the left. But this is very much a 21st-century contest between populist authoritarianism and liberal democracy—and Maduro’s the authoritarian. Sure, he leads a “socialist” party, but his regime has obliterated Venezuela’s democracy since he came to power in 2013. The opposition overwhelmingly won legislative elections in 2015, taking control of the Assembly, Venezuela’s top legislative body. In response, Maduro’s acolytes in the Supreme Court first stripped the Assembly of all its powers, and then Maduro crafted a rubber-stamp constituent assembly of his backers to take over legislative duties. Maduro imprisoned opposition leaders and held a sham election in 2018 to give himself a second term. After Maduro took the oath of office, the opposition said it considered him an illegitimate president and launched the current campaign.

Second, the left wrongly assumes Trump is supporting his usual authoritarian allies on the right, and therefore is drawing the wrong conclusions about what’s at stake in Venezuela and whom the opposition there really represents. To call the opposition, as Omar did, “far right,” is absurd. True, American presidents in the past have supported rightist autocrats in Latin America, from Augusto Pinochet in Chile to the military regime in Brazil. But Guaidó is a socialist, and the opposition encompasses every part of Venezuelan society except the narrow base that still supports Maduro. History is not repeating itself in Caracas.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/01/29/trump-venezuela-policy-analysis-224384
 

superchuck500

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Similar viewpoint at FP:

Twenty-first century socialism in Venezuela was supposed to offer hope, but it turned out to represent yet another mirage, this time built on the back of exorbitantly high oil prices. As prices dropped, mismanagement of the state-run oil company, PDVSA, by the Chávez and Nicolás Maduro governments saw Venezuela’s oil output fall to 1.34 million barrels a day in June of last year—the lowest point in seven decades, excluding the 2002-2003 strike. This, together with ill-conceived price controls, has reduced the country to beggary.

However, this isn’t the most dangerous failing. Much of the Western left, including those who once had only kind words for Chávez and his successors, is treating Venezuela as an embarrassment best brushed under the carpet. Yet what is really frightening are those who, under the guise of anti-imperialism, consistently favor dictators—as long as they mouth anti-American platitudes.

To be sure, we should be wary of loose talk of regime change in Venezuela on the part of the Trump administration. While Donald Trump is correct in calling for Maduro to step aside, U.S. belligerence would be more hindrance than help for any route back to democracy. Not only is there a long history of U.S. intervention on the part of some of the worst right-wing actors in Latin America, American aggression is more likely to hand Venezuela’s ruling elite the excuse they need to wage a further crackdown on internal dissent than to aid an opposition that needs to prove its legitimacy at home, not abroad.

But it’s possible to oppose U.S. interventionism without making further excuses for the dictatorship in Caracas.
The Left Keeps Getting Venezuela Wrong https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/28/the-left-keeps-getting-venezuela-wrong/
 

SystemShock

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In a shocking turn of events :rolleyes:, news reporters are being arrested in Venezuela. 2 Colombians and one Spaniard were arrested and are in the process of being deported. No one knows what happened to the Venezuelan who was driving them around. They're members of Agencia Efe, basically the Spanish version of the Associated Press.
 

superchuck500

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VILLA DEL ROSARIO, Colombia—Thousands of people stand idly about, families sitting near heaps of luggage. Groups cram into every bit of available shade, eager to ignore the shouts of salesmen hawking potatoes or medication. Nearby, bus companies promote “no passport” travel inland.

This is what a migration crisis looks like. For more than two years, a steady stream of people—many toting little more than ragged backpacks and bags—have crossed into this Colombian town and others like it, escaping their crumbling homeland, Venezuela, which has been weathering an economic collapse and, more recently, a political crisis.

Thus far, Colombia has opened its doors as millions of people have flocked to its border. Politicians here know there is no way to keep these migrants out, so instead of railing against its neighbor or raising the drawbridge, they have focused on integrating those who arrive, efforts that have been commended by aid agencies. But with almost 1.5 million Venezuelans here, equivalent to about 3 percent of Colombia’s population, and more arriving every day, the country may soon be entirely overwhelmed.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/01/colombia-welcomes-millions-venezuelans-maduro-guaido/581647/
 
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El Caliente

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In a shocking turn of events :rolleyes:, news reporters are being arrested in Venezuela. 2 Colombians and one Spaniard were arrested and are in the process of being deported. No one knows what happened to the Venezuelan who was driving them around. They're members of Agencia Efe, basically the Spanish version of the Associated Press.
I’m sure that the driver is fine, and the reporters were given only the finest accommodations.

I don’t know how anyone can take Maduro seriously when he shuts down the internet in the country. What does he have to hide if he is such a great leader?

People that keep bringing up Gold and Oil need to recognize who the Lima Group is. These are neighboring countries who are tired of Venezuela’s problems pouring into their countries. They are the ones the raised the call to action, and have been leading the charge in fixing this mess.
 

insidejob

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Lol Nobody cares about your enlightening experience, dude. I’ll listen to what Venezuelans have to say. But keep deflecting away to your wonderful journey through Venezuela and San Francisco, while not substantively addressing anything I said.
He's talking about San Francisco, Venezuela. Not San Francisco, CA. Being the expert on Venezuela you're pretending to be by dismissing his experience actually living in Venezuela, you'd certainly have known this, I'd suppose.
 

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