Vick is the highest rated Quarterback in the NFC South, (if you include rushing). (1 Viewer)

SuperChamp

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I got this from the Falcon's message board. I have never seen a Quarterback rating, that included "rushing yards" Is there such a thing? If so, is this accurate? I think the Falcon fans made this up to make them feel better. Like look, Micheal Vick is better than Drew Brees, (if you add rushing yards). I, for one, am not buying it.

Vicks QB rating with rushing stats included: 94.2
Brees with rushing included: 84.1
Delhomme with rushing: 74.6
Gradkowski with rushing: 67.4
 

msmith

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Let the Birds' fans dwell in fantasy. Even better, after the Falcons are out of playoff, they still wonder why their top-rated quarterback couldn't take them to the big dance.
 

LSSpam

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I got this from the Falcon's message board. I have never seen a Quarterback rating, that included "rushing yards" Is there such a thing? If so, is this accurate? I think the Falcon fans made this up to make them feel better. Like look, Micheal Vick is better than Drew Brees, (if you add rushing yards). I, for one, am not buying it.

Vicks QB rating with rushing stats included: 94.2
Brees with rushing included: 84.1
Delhomme with rushing: 74.6
Gradkowski with rushing: 67.4
Well there is "such a thing" if you make up a new scale that includes rushing yards. But it's utterly meaningless without any sort of explanation about his methodology.

Current QB ratings
Drew Brees - 95.2
Jake Delhomme - 80.3
Mike Vick - 79.0

As you would guess, i'm kind of suspect about any methodology which reduces Bree's rating by 10 points.

Here i'll do one now

Including sacked yardage (negative)
Rush yardage (positive)
Rush attempts (as completions)
Sacks (as incompletions)
Fumbles (as interceptions)
and Rush Touchdowns (as Touchdowns)

(and I have no idea how this will end up)

Vick - 80.6 (183 / 299, 1803 yards, 13 TDs, 9 INTs...I only counted fumbles lost, not the 5 he fumbled but his team recovered)

Brees - 87.6 ( 209 / 315, 2162 yards, 14 TDs, 10 INTs...Brees' 3 lost fumbles, 2 vs Green Bay, really hurt him under this format)

So yeah, not sure what's up with the adjusted rating of the Falcons fan
 

MLU

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If you have to change the rules to gain an edge, are you really doing that good?
 

antipop

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that is just plain dumb....considering vick is the only QB in the league that rushes 10-15 times a game, that is gonna put him on top no matter what...hey whatever they have to say to convince themselves that he is comparable to other pocket qbs....i would take brees, manning(both), brady, mcnabb, hasselbeck, bulger, palmer, mcnair, and probably a few others over vick any day
 

LSSpam

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If you have to change the rules to gain an edge, are you really doing that good?
QB rating isn't a "rule". It's a measuring stick to determine how effective a QB is. And it's lacking. Most people agree it's very much an imperfect tool. The question is, is there such a thing as a perfect tool? (No)

So changing it to make it better isn't "wrong". I don't even nessecarily disagree with the premise of adding in rushing stats. QBs like Drew Bledsoe who get sacked a lot are less effective then QBs like Drew Brees but the sacks don't show up in the stats. And QBs like Vick who are multi-threats in the redzone don't get their rushing TDs added either, which is unfair.

The problem is the Falcons fan who posted that didn't explain his new formula for getting those ratings. They looked awfully homeriffic and didn't make much sense.

I think the "adjustment" I did is probably the best way to include rush stats.
 

antipop

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so how is that fair for the 28 QBs in the league who hardly ever run??
 

SaintJ

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I think it's an excellent way to show the added value of a running quarterback, you just have to be careful how you smooth your data.

If Vick drops back to pass and scrambles 8 yards for a first down, count it as an 8 yard completion.

The problem is you have to throw out all those kneel-downs because they skew both the rushing and passing stats. They shoudn't include those any more than they should call a late-game steal that doesn't draw a throw in baseball a "steal" rather than catcher's indifference.

But it does help square Vick's apparent effectiveness in the W/L column with has passer rating. I like it.
 

LSSpam

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so how is that fair for the 28 QBs in the league who hardly ever run??
It's fair precisely because they don't run. That's like saying "how fair is it to include YPA and Touchdowns to the other 20 QBs who don't throw deep like McNabb?". Look it's not McNabbs fault Brad Johnson has a weak arm and it's not Mike Vicks fault Drew Bledsoe can't run around.

QB Rating is designed to measure QB contribution. Vick running is a contribution. Drew Bledsoe getting sacked is a contribution (negative). Gradkowski fumbling is a contribution (negative). Those things should count.
 

Broad St. Saint

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It's also kind of dumb because while a team usually has only one guy out of 11 on offense who is a decent passer, others can run the ball effectively -- Mike Vick's running yards come at some cost to his RBs and even WRs. Drew Brees' passing does not come at a cost to Reggie Bush's passing (as we saw against the Ravens).
 

LSSpam

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I think it's an excellent way to show the added value of a running quarterback, you just have to be careful how you smooth your data.

If Vick drops back to pass and scrambles 8 yards for a first down, count it as an 8 yard completion.

The problem is you have to throw out all those kneel-downs because they skew both the rushing and passing stats. They shoudn't include those any more than they should call a late-game steal that doesn't draw a throw in baseball a "steal" rather than catcher's indifference.

But it does help square Vick's apparent effectiveness in the W/L column with has passer rating. I like it.
Kneel downs should count like "spikes" yes. That is not count at all.

I count all rushing attempts as completions rather then try to differentiate because a 2 yard run on third down that doesn't get the first is the same, to me, as a swing pass on third down because of a blitz that also doesn't get a first down. It's a completion. It's not fair, but the QB Rating can't ever be perfect because of the nature of football. If you get positive yardage, it's a completion. If you don't, it's an incompletion.
 

LSSpam

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It's also kind of dumb because while a team usually has only one guy out of 11 on offense who is a decent passer, others can run the ball effectively -- Mike Vick's running yards come at some cost to his RBs and even WRs. Drew Brees' passing does not come at a cost to Reggie Bush's passing (as we saw against the Ravens).
That's the most valid objection, yes. A QB's job is to get others involved even at the cost of himself. Not suggesting it's perfect. But a QB who can run does contribute in that manner to the team, so it's a "lesser of two evils" sort of deal.
 

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