Vietnam (1 Viewer)

[st dude]

I did not see a thread on this show. It's so powerful and brings back memories. I was in high school when the demonstrations began. I remember some friends my age (16) wearing black armbands and marching.

My dad was in the navy. My grandfather a career colonel in the US Army. Protesting seemed so not patriotic to me. The protesters from my school were largely ostracized.

I remember the protestors at my school as being bright guys. They debated their position with me as I clung to the notion it was wrong to question our country.

By the time I entered college, my views had changed. Not because I was draft eligible, but rather because it became obvious to me this was a dumb war, worse than the Korean War. Nobody had bombed Pearl Harbor. No one was killing Jews. We had snuck our nose in a civil war.

My draft number was 157, my best friend got 6. We got drunk that night. Woodstock had come and protesting became more accepted. Still there were very hard feelings and families shattered over whether their kids were going to war.

Watching this very powerful and haunting series is hard. Blacks were disproportionately sent to the front line. College kids got deferments, we know how that works. It's easier to vote for a war in Congress if you send someone else's kids to war. Poor kids went before rich kids on average. The war ended before my number got called.

Not to turn the thread political, but I sure wish we could get our kids out of Afghanistan. I get the part that there could be some void if we left, but there have been voids there for 4000 years and I am not so sure we are not making more terrorists by staying there.

Thanks to all the Vietnam vets on here. I am sorry you had to go, your service is very much appreciated. I tear up every time I go to the Vietnam monument. It's so sad to read all the names.

 

[Twyst]

I just got back from Vietnam a few weeks ago and it was really strange to see the war portrayed by the other side while I was there. War causes such senseless pain for all involved yet we seem to go there time after time.

 

[superchuck500]

The Vietnam era was my focus as a history major in college. I have since read no less than 20 books about it and it remains a strong interest of mine.

The Burns series is just outstanding - perhaps his best work. The presentation is accurate, fair, and sobering - as this episode of our history always will be. But the way he and Lynn Novik attempt to weave the emotion and personal side without washing out the political-science, military, and cultural story that drives the presentation is masterful.

 

[efil4stnias]

I'm assuming you are talking about the PBS series?

I have watched last few nights and it's gripping. the crap these kids had to deal with...i remember one part about the siege of Hue, they showed a young soldier attempting to light a cigarette and his hands were so shakey he couldn't get the lighter to the cigarette in his mouth. seconds later and artillery shell goes off down the way and he hits the deck faster than anyone.

I was born in 71. my uncle was drafted and served 2 tours and my father said he came back a very different man. spent his years drifting, living with native Americans, smoking pot and doing peyote.

you hear these men tell these stories (even the Viet Cong sides) and all I say is dayum

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[Devildog]

The way Ken Burns did this series is a testament to him as a filmmaker. He told the story on all sides equally and it was up to you to decide what to do with the information presented. Beautifully done and like SC500 said, perhaps his best work.

 

[TXSAINTFAN]

Fantastic documentary.

Coming of age in that era was an eye opener if you were paying attention and how could you not with the war on network tv news during dinnertime. The killing of political leaders, the riots, the music.

I literally teared up during the Kent State segment. And I thought just as I had when this took place, how can this happen in my country?

So many memories have come back to me watching this series and they were mostly not good ones but I think to myself I was lucky to have experienced that era as it shaped who I am today.

 

[rajncajn]

I'm assuming you are talking about the PBS series?

I have watched last few nights and it's gripping. the crap these kids had to deal with...i remember one part about the siege of Hue, they showed a young soldier attempting to light a cigarette and his hands were so shakey he couldn't get the lighter to the cigarette in his mouth. seconds later and artillery shell goes off down the way and he hits the deck faster than anyone.

I was born in 71. my uncle was drafted and served 2 tours and my father said he came back a very different man. spent his years drifting, living with native Americans, smoking pot and doing peyote.

you hear these men tell these stories (even the Viet Cong sides) and all I say is dayum

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

I was born in 71 as well & I've always found the different perspectives from my family and people I know fascinating. My mom & stepdad were the protesting hippies, my stepdad and his brother were the silver spoon types who got out of going. My Dad was the guy who's number didn't come up. Both my uncles on my mom's side went, one with the Army, the other Navy. The army guy spent time in the jungle & didn't often talk about it. When he did, some of the stuff he told us had to have been absolutely terrifying. The same goes for my dad's first cousin. I believe they both got out shortly after returning to the States. The Navy uncle ended up being a lifer and at one point was a ship's commander serving in the first Gulf War before he finally retired. I also work with a lot of old Navy vets that served in Vietnam as well. As strange as it may sound, some of them would go so far as to say that they enjoyed their time over there. And these weren't just ship sailors either, two of the guys I worked with were riverboat sailors that saw a ton of action.

 

[saintfan-n-alex]

The way Ken Burns did this series is a testament to him as a filmmaker. He told the story on all sides equally and it was up to you to decide what to do with the information presented. Beautifully done and like SC500 said, perhaps his best work.

Clint Eastwood made a movie several years ago about WWII that told the story from both sides , I have forgotten the name

Both show how on the soldier level that both sides the men are all the same

One of the things I took from this is how at the gov level both sides are viewed as dishonest and corrupt

I recall being brought into the library as a classroom watch Nixon announce the "end of the war"

 

[rajncajn]

Clint Eastwood made a movie several years ago about WWII that told the story from both sides , I have forgotten the name

Both show how on the soldier level that both sides the men are all the same

One of the things I took from this is how at the gov level both sides are viewed as dishonest and corrupt

I recall being brought into the library as a classroom watch Nixon announce the "end of the war"

Flags of our Fathers, story about the battle of Iwo Jima. Outstanding movie.

 

[superchuck500]

I'm assuming you are talking about the PBS series?

I have watched last few nights and it's gripping. the crap these kids had to deal with...i remember one part about the siege of Hue, they showed a young soldier attempting to light a cigarette and his hands were so shakey he couldn't get the lighter to the cigarette in his mouth. seconds later and artillery shell goes off down the way and he hits the deck faster than anyone.

I was born in 71. my uncle was drafted and served 2 tours and my father said he came back a very different man. spent his years drifting, living with native Americans, smoking pot and doing peyote.

you hear these men tell these stories (even the Viet Cong sides) and all I say is dayum

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

I have sort of three personal perspectives on Vietnam - noting, of course, that I was born in 1973. The first is academic, as I have studied it intensely. My senior thesis was an analysis of the US military's drug policy in Vietnam - and the idea was that use of marijuana was initially tolerated and in fact, a helpful and unproblematic coping mechanism, for these 18 to 25 years old in a foreign land under very challenging circumstances. By 1968, however, the US military brass changed that policy of tolerance because (in their bullheadedness) they associated smoking weed with the anti-war movement back in the states. Of course this was inaccurate and ultimately damaging, as the troops then often turned to a far more dangerous escape in the form of heroin (which was abundant in SVN and much easier to conceal), and by 1972, the US military was losing as many or more men to heroin overdose than to combat. The data and timelines on weed use, heroin use, policy change, etc. all fairly evidenced this thesis. I used many contemporary news articles from the time to draw my anecdotal evidence, and named the paper "Psychedelic Killers: the Story of Drug Use by American GI's in Vietnam" (after reading an article wherein a solider said he smoked pot and was a "psychedelic killer"), and I got an A on it.

But as Burns masterfully presents, the war can only be seen as a series of misperceptions, miscalculations, and choices that only aided the very reality that we sought to prevent . . . laid over a backdrop of views of cultural superiority (racism can be a loaded term but that's what it was) and the Soviet boogeyman. It is particularly painful to listen to recordings of Kennedy speaking to his audio journal and LBJ confiding in Bundy where both presidents clearly knew that our objective was almost certainly unachievable and that it required us to support some very un-democratic people in Saigon. Like watching a man standing next to a fire explaining all of the reasons why stepping on the flames is a bad idea . . . and then choosing to burn his feet anyway. In all of this, I find the figures of SECDEF McNamara and Undersecretary of State George Ball to be the most interesting.

And after years of studying the conflict's origins, strategies, and the political science of it all, I realized I needed to learn more about the actual military story - the shifting tactics, the individual force deployments and missions, and the major operations and their locations. And the story of the USMC in Vietnam was particularly interesting to me (as explained below).

The other two perspectives I have come from my father and my father-in-law. My wife's father, Rick, is one of my favorite people on Earth. He grew up in downtown Cleveland, the son of a butcher who later became a maitre-d . . . not a family of particular means. But while his brothers got involved in light gang activity, Rick was the smart one who focused on school and excelled in technical areas (rebuilding car engines, wood shop, etc.). After high school graduation in May of 1965, he got a scholarship to a respected tool-and-die trade school in the Cleveland area. One week before the school was supposed to start, he and a friend got arrested for stealing a car. (Actually, they found a car with keys in it and they drove it to a party a few miles away. They returned it with gas in it, but the owner was waiting for them and none too pleased. I do believe this story, he has told me so much of his life, I don't think any of it is untruthful). The next day at his court hearing, the judge said "Boy, you can go to jail or you can join the service." My FIL said "I'll join, Sir." The judge said "Pack your bags, boy."

Accepting this sudden turn of events, Rick joined the Marines because he thought they were the toughest. Within a few weeks, he was at Camp Pendleton and then transfered to the 3d Division HQ in Okinawa and awaited deployment into the 3d Div's operational area near the DMZ in South Vietnam, which occurred for him sometime in late 1966. He was a rifleman attached to a scout/recon platoon that supported a tank battalion stationed in Quang Tri province. This area included the series of firebases known as the McNamara line and he basically served as infantry in this role. He said contact was not as frequent as that seen by platoons performing infantry operations, but he saw his share of firefights and lost squad mates.

Several months after his arrival, he was on patrol in some rice paddies when a squad mate was charged by a water buffalo. The marine fell down, and as the buffalo approached, several others were well positioned to begin firing on the animal without risking hitting the marine. From Rick's position, he could not fire because the marine on the ground was in the line of fire. However the marine next to Rick began firing anyway, and Rick immediately knocked the rifle up into the air and called the guy an idiot for firing from that position. About a week later, they were on patrol an encountered VC running through a tree-line . . . and this same idiot started firing and shot Rick's left hand with an M-16 round. The wound was not life threatening (after they contained the bleeding), but the damage was so severe that Rick's infantry days were done, and he would be hospitalized in Quang Tri, Okinawa, and ultimately Walter Reed in Washington DC for the next 18 months as doctors worked to restore his hand's function. He talks about how he spent weeks at the field hospital in Dong Ha, and several nights a week, the base would take mortar rounds - and he describes how the able-bodied patients took cover, but the doctors and nurses would lay flack jackets on those men who weren't mobile, and then they would stand there with them, with no armor of their own. He was most impressed by the bravery of that medical staff.

He eventually finished his commitment and they fixed his hand for the most part. He was released from Walter Reed and met my mother-in-law, a girl from California who had moved to DC when her father went to Washington to be director of the Public Health Service. Rick went to U of Maryland and got a teaching degree . . . and had a great career teaching shop and engineering classes in public high schools in the greater DC area.

He's about 5'9" and fairly round from a lifetime of beer drinking. He's very light hearted, energetic and has a way about him that is always level and upbeat, even when talking about challenging subjects or traumatic memories. He's certainly not your typical ex-Marine. And given my fascination with the war, he has always been willing to talk to me about it. We have spent many a night with glasses of bourbon and discussions of the war long after everyone else has gone to bed.

My father also graduated high school in 1965 in a town on the Atlantic coast of North Carolina, where my dad grew up on the water, boating, surfing, and fishing his entire life. His father was a staunch Republican who supported Barry Goldwater in 1964, in part due to his hawkish position on Vietnam and Communist containment. My father's older brother was a captain in the Marines on deployment holding the line of Communist advancement in West Germany. My grandfather was very proud of my uncle (who later died of cancer in the early 70s). My father felt immense pressure to enlist, but he very much wanted to go to college first. So he took the educational deferment and headed off, three hours down the road to Duke University in Durham - my grandfather's alma matter, and he was happy my dad chose to go there.

The draft was still in full effect in 1969 when my father graduated with his degree in marine biology from Duke. About half a million American troops were in Vietnam, and my father wanted to live up to his commitment to himself to serve his country. Given his coastal background and education, he chose to join the Navy and he went down to the recruiter to talk about it. But things were different by 1969, the perception of the war among people like my father (from a military/serve-your-country family) had become far more complicated. The objectives were not clear and the messiness of the war was far more obvious back home by the time my father's educational deferment was over. He had seen high school friends and fraternity brothers go to Vietnam and not make it back home . . . and the nation still had little to show for this sacrifice.

But he, nonetheless, went down and spoke with Navy recruiter - he completed the pre-enlistment application and took the simple, non-medical physical they gave as part of the pre-enlistment process for those who walked in to volunteer. The recruiter noted that my father appeared to have outstanding ears - his scores on the hearing test were the highest the recruiter had ever seen. "With your hearing test, you're almost certainly going to be a sonar man!" My dad said he wanted to talk it over with his mother and his girlfriend (who is now my mother), and he would return to sign his enlistment.

He couldn't bring himself to do it. With his growing concern about the war, he couldn't sleep that night, imaging himself off on a ship or submarine somewhere working the sonar for the next two years. After speaking with my mother, he decided to take a second education deferment and go back to get his masters. So unlike many of his friends and contemporaries, my father never went to Vietnam and never served in the armed forces.

Over the years, as I became an adult and grew fascinated with the war, I learned that unlike my FIL Rick, my father's relationship with the war is far more complicated. To this day he carries very deep personal conflict about his life and decisions at that time. In what I have come to recognize as most closely analogized to survivor's guilt, my father is proud of his life, his family, his career, and his accomplishments in the community . . . . and he certainly owes no apologies to anyone; I couldn't be prouder of the man. But I believe he also carries a sadness that he may have failed to serve his country as he had always hoped to do, and failed to follow the example that his father and brother laid. What's worse is that he has a certain shame about it when he and the others that he has made close friendships with over the years, when those men did serve in Vietnam and they get to talking about it. My father knows they put their lives on the line, and he did not . . . and he it is something that he struggles with to this day.

He is willing to have light discussion with me about the general history or he will answer specific questions I may ask about that time in America, or what he may have done or not done . . . in an objective sense. But he certainly doesn't engage with it and my comments about his inner-conflict with it are mostly formed through observation and thought - rather than from him telling me about it.

In the end, I think it was just a ****ed up thing all around.

 

[porculator]

It still boggles my mind that me that we had a military draft so recently.

No matter what your complaints about our current government may be, they don't come close to the cruelty of randomly selecting citizens to go get killed in a doomed proxy war on the other side of the earth.

My dad was there and never talks about it. I know he would have experienced some of the worst, as a Marine flying medivac/casevac. I am going to try to get him to watch these and hopefully share some of his experience but don't know if he ever really will.

 

[PayOrPlay]

Clint Eastwood made a movie several years ago about WWII that told the story from both sides , I have forgotten the name

Both show how on the soldier level that both sides the men are all the same

One of the things I took from this is how at the gov level both sides are viewed as dishonest and corrupt

I recall being brought into the library as a classroom watch Nixon announce the "end of the war"

Flags of our Fathers, story about the battle of Iwo Jima. Outstanding movie.

Eastwood also directed a second movie, originally shot in Japanese, entitled Letters from Iwo Jima.

 

[PayOrPlay]

It still boggles my mind that me that we had a military draft so recently.

No matter what your complaints about our current government may be, they don't come close to the cruelty of randomly selecting citizens to go get killed in a doomed proxy war on the other side of the earth.

My dad was there and never talks about it. I know he would have experienced some of the worst, as a Marine flying medivac/casevac. I am going to try to get him to watch these and hopefully share some of his experience but don't know if he ever really will.

Yes, the draft was terrifying, and on a personal level I am grateful that by the time I turned 18 it was gone. And it's open to question if the modern, super hi-tech U.S. army could be successfully staffed by short-term semi-committed draftees.

On the other hand, it's a lot easier for the powers that be to commit American troops wherever they want when those troops are volunteers led by experienced, professional, career military. The one arguable advantage of citizen armies is that they are (at least ideally) more representative of the nation as a whole and reflect more of a diversity of viewpoints.

 

[Flipx99]

From what I know, Ken Burns is a trusted and gifted talent. Always worth watching.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is Oliver Stone, which is a shame because while he is gifted he takes too many liberties with the truth. If you know going into it 20% is probably BS, you cant trust any of it.

 

[Bayouboy]

I was born in 71. my uncle was drafted and served 2 tours and my father said he came back a very different man. spent his years drifting, living with native Americans, smoking pot and doing peyote.

True story:

My uncle was drafted and was to report on Monday to catch a bus that would take him to boot camp. The weekend prior to his departure, all of the family came over to see him off. My mother said lots of tears fell and everyone was certain they would not see him again, because he was not made for war.

Anyway that weekend, one of the family dogs had the mange. Other than my grandfather, he was the only man of the house (at the time), so grandmaw told him to go out by the canal and shoot the dog (don't judge, this was not uncommon back in the day). He left and did not come back for some time. Grandmaw sent one of his brothers out looking for him. My other uncle found him sitting, hands to his face, weeping. He could not bring himself to kill the dog. He couldn't do it. This man was sent into battle on the front lines for 2 years. Let that sink in.....

Needless to say, when he returned, he was never the same. I get choked up every time I think about this story. Even if you do not know my uncle, you can feel the conflict/pain that he's had to live with his whole life. Tough stuff.