We Didn't Get Lucky (1 Viewer)

RJ in Lafayette

Super Forum Fanatic
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 1999
Messages
11,376
Reaction score
11,063
Offline
After a night to reflect, I am not upset with the Vaccaro selection and believe that it was the best selection that we could have made. I would have preferred a defensive lineman because top defensive linemen are drafted more highly than top safeties and teams often drafting low often do not have a chance to pick a defensive lineman like Sheldon Richardson or Star Lotilelei. But at 13 the Jets picked Richardson--the Tampa trade ended up hurting us--and at 14 Carolina picked Lotulelei. This was my fear--we would be one slot away from selecting a player who could have well been a top 10 pick and who fell. Late season wins for a team sitting out the playoffs can matter.

At 15, the Saints had basically four options: Floyd, Jarvis Jones, Vaccaro, trading down. Let's examine:

1. The first option was Floyd, who was projected in most mock drafts to be a top 10 and even top 5 pick. However, even after the Saints passed on Floyd, he lasted another 8 picks or so until he was selected by Minnesota. The problem with Floyd was fit. If there was at least a question of Richardson being a good fit for a 3-4, there was a big question of Floyd being a good fit for that defense.

2. The second option was Jarvis Jones. I was not a proponent of Jones--the medical condition, the combine results, the practice habits, the questions about lateral range. However, many of you were proponents, and the Steelers with a much vaunted 3-4 defense two picks later did select Jones.

3. The third option was Vaccaro. He apparently fits what Ryan wants to do on defense--and he did fill a need. Someone else has commented that a factor with the Vaccaro pick was the return of Tony Gonzalez and the Atlanta passing attack, and I agree.

4. The fourth option was trading down. Based on the trades made, no team gave up a second round draft pick to move up to a first round pick that was not in the top 10. Dallas mpoved from 18 to 31 for a third round pick (a poor trade by Dallas). But Atlanta moving up gave up only a third round pick and change. Looking at the trades made last night, I believe that no team was offering us a second round pick to move up. The trading down option depended heavily on Tavon Austin being available, and a small bidding war ensuing. He went long before 15 (in my opinion, the result less of Austin's skill set than the absurdly tiny pool of top wide receivers and running backs this year).

My guess is that the options were really two--Jones and Vaccaro--and Vaccaro was judged the more athletic player and the safer pick. I am not thrilled about the selection, but it was dictated largely by the events of the evening before the Saints picked.
 

No2DC

Hall-of-Famer
VIP Subscribing Member
VIP Contributor
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
Messages
12,618
Reaction score
21,894
Offline
^^^Basically. I think it feels weird because in our collective wisdom we just thought Jones would be the guy. Not saying he's better, but many of us wanted a LB or DL. Kenny might turn out the a star, but can't say I'm all excited. Crazy draft.
 

lurking around

Super Forum Fanatic
Joined
Apr 8, 1999
Messages
8,277
Reaction score
345
Location
Plano Tx from New Iberia La
Offline
The Saints knew the 49ers were trading up to get a safety. They couldn't risk falling too far down to get Vaccaro. Teams know what the other wants, which is why the phones weren't ringing. The 49ers knew the Saints response if they called.
 

Nightshade

Super Forum Fanatic
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
7,870
Reaction score
14,184
Location
Decatur Mississippi
Offline
Floyd dropped because a lot of teams fear his short arms will be a major problem at the pro level. His best fit will be in the 4-3 where he doesn't have to face long armed OTs.


Posted from Saintsreport.com App for Android
 
OP
OP

RJ in Lafayette

Super Forum Fanatic
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 1999
Messages
11,376
Reaction score
11,063
Offline
To the contrary, I am sure that they could care less, and I could care less that they could care less.

During the day yesterday, I kept thinking that we were picking one slot too high, though I had in mind Carolina at 14 picking Richardson. And I think the way it turned out is that we were were drafting one slot too high--hence, the title of the thread.

I will add that I suspect our celebrity defensive coordinator du jour took delight in the pick because Dallas was supposedly interested in Vaccaro.
 

BoNcHiE

Every team's Elixir
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
58,867
Reaction score
79,419
Age
37
Offline
In my very simplistic view, I'm more excited about this pick then if we had taken a pass rusher.

Why? Because I see much more potential for greatness in Galette, Butler, and Wilson (And we will draft another LB at some point) vs. Harper and Jenkins.

So if I'm having to improve one position, I'd rather roll with what we have at rush backer and inject some elite talent into the safety position. Namely, someone who can actually cover.
 

tenordas

Vesti le procè flamber
VIP Contributor
Joined
Aug 31, 1997
Messages
12,059
Reaction score
7,646
Location
Houston via New Jersey, New Orleans, Baton Rouge,
Offline
To the contrary, I am sure that they could care less, and I could care less that they could care less.

During the day yesterday, I kept thinking that we were picking one slot too high, though I had in mind Carolina at 14 picking Richardson. And I think the way it turned out is that we were were drafting one slot too high--hence, the title of the thread.

I will add that I suspect our celebrity defensive coordinator du jour took delight in the pick because Dallas was supposedly interested in Vaccaro.

While I was less than thrilled with the pick, I do wonder if Payton sent an empty wine bottle to Jerry Jones after picking Vaccaro last night. :mwink: :hihi:
 

jt21

ALL-MADDEN TEAM
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
1,657
Reaction score
430
Offline
Still bitter that the Jets took Richardson with both Wilkerson and Coples already on that line...

But like the Vaccaro pick, given what was available.
 

guillermo

Visible minority
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Aug 8, 1997
Messages
13,596
Reaction score
16,924
Age
57
Offline
From the beginning of the process I wrote that our biggest need was safety. I thought also that it was besides either the Georgia linebackers or Vaccaro.

The only reason I would have picked Jones over Vaccaro was that I think that there will be better options at safety then OLB at the third round, but obviously the saints staff have rated Kenny better then Jarvis.

Now, If we can get a good outside linebacker, a 3-4 defensive end and an offensive tackle for depth, I am happy.

Draft is no over yet. I am starting to think that the Ivory trade is a no go. We may not be able to fill all of our holes but I am betting we can get at least two more solid players.
 

JvilleJoe

Subscribing Member
Platinum VIP Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2000
Messages
11,096
Reaction score
6,264
Offline
RJ I cannot agree with you more. For many years I have heard that the good drafting teams 'let the draft come to them' and do not reach like a few teams did last night. I too was really hoping that one of the pass rushers or stud DT's would fall but those type players do not last long and this year they did not.
Vaccaro was not the sexy pick, but IMO he does fill a need, is considered the best at his position group in this draft by most, and gives our back end defense some athleticism and that is not a bad thing at all.
The real opportunity of this draft for our Saints will come with our picks starting in round 3 and hopefully the picking up of another 4th round choice from the Jets. This year we cannot afford to miss on those picks as we need guys who can come in and contribute at OT, DL, CB and I think WR.
 

Saint Kamara

Formerly SaintSproles and SaintReggie
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
41,393
Reaction score
58,255
Age
58
Location
Austin, TX
Offline
In my very simplistic view, I'm more excited about this pick then if we had taken a pass rusher.

Why? Because I see much more potential for greatness in Galette, Butler, and Wilson (And we will draft another LB at some point) vs. Harper and Jenkins.

So if I'm having to improve one position, I'd rather roll with what we have at rush backer and inject some elite talent into the safety position. Namely, someone who can actually cover.

I agree.

We didn't necessarily need another "potentially" good edge rusher. We have 3 of those already.
 

bigdaddysaints

BigDaddy Has Arrived
VIP Contributor
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
11,196
Reaction score
20,192
Age
49
Location
DutchTown
Offline
. Late season wins for a team sitting out the playoffs can matter.

.

Any coach or player who would lose a game on purpose, I don't want..
If any player steps on the field with the intention of losing, he has no place in this game.. same for the coach who would gameplan to lose intentionally has no place on the sidelines..
These guys are professionals, no one 'wants' to lose..
 

King Puppy

Arena Leaguer
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
859
Reaction score
441
Offline
I said that I wouldn't be unhappy with a Vaccaro pick, depending on who was still on board.

Would have preferred Jones, but Vaccaro is defensible. Jones has some physical limitations but has quite a bit of upside and could potentially be a huge upgrade to our D by creating havoc coming off the edge. I have no doubt Vaccaro will be a solid, lontime starter, but imo a good edge rusher can impact your defense more than a good safety. We played it safe and got a guy who's going to be at worst a consistent starter instead of gambling on a guy who has the possibility of being a top pass rusher.
 

cajungiant40

Veteran Starter
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
440
Reaction score
160
Offline
After a night to reflect, I am not upset with the Vaccaro selection and believe that it was the best selection that we could have made. I would have preferred a defensive lineman because top defensive linemen are drafted more highly than top safeties and teams often drafting low often do not have a chance to pick a defensive lineman like Sheldon Richardson or Star Lotilelei. But at 13 the Jets picked Richardson--the Tampa trade ended up hurting us--and at 14 Carolina picked Lotulelei. This was my fear--we would be one slot away from selecting a player who could have well been a top 10 pick and who fell. Late season wins for a team sitting out the playoffs can matter.

At 15, the Saints had basically four options: Floyd, Jarvis Jones, Vaccaro, trading down. Let's examine:

1. The first option was Floyd, who was projected in most mock drafts to be a top 10 and even top 5 pick. However, even after the Saints passed on Floyd, he lasted another 8 picks or so until he was selected by Minnesota. The problem with Floyd was fit. If there was at least a question of Richardson being a good fit for a 3-4, there was a big question of Floyd being a good fit for that defense.

2. The second option was Jarvis Jones. I was not a proponent of Jones--the medical condition, the combine results, the practice habits, the questions about lateral range. However, many of you were proponents, and the Steelers with a much vaunted 3-4 defense two picks later did select Jones.

3. The third option was Vaccaro. He apparently fits what Ryan wants to do on defense--and he did fill a need. Someone else has commented that a factor with the Vaccaro pick was the return of Tony Gonzalez and the Atlanta passing attack, and I agree.

4. The fourth option was trading down. Based on the trades made, no team gave up a second round draft pick to move up to a first round pick that was not in the top 10. Dallas mpoved from 18 to 31 for a third round pick (a poor trade by Dallas). But Atlanta moving up gave up only a third round pick and change. Looking at the trades made last night, I believe that no team was offering us a second round pick to move up. The trading down option depended heavily on Tavon Austin being available, and a small bidding war ensuing. He went long before 15 (in my opinion, the result less of Austin's skill set than the absurdly tiny pool of top wide receivers and running backs this year).

My guess is that the options were really two--Jones and Vaccaro--and Vaccaro was judged the more athletic player and the safer pick. I am not thrilled about the selection, but it was dictated largely by the events of the evening before the Saints picked.

I will say that the vikes gave up a 2,3, and 4 to go get Patterson. But I don't think I'd of wanted to move down that far. I'm happy with the vaccaro selection. It grew on me overnight and while I wanted Jarvis, safety is certainly the more suspect position on our roster. Mr Harper, you have officially been out on notice.
 

Disco

Guest
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
Offline
Draft is no over yet. I am starting to think that the Ivory trade is a no go. We may not be able to fill all of our holes but I am betting we can get at least two more solid players.

Why do you think a trade involving Ivory will not happen now? What has changed that would see the Jets no longer be interested?
 
OP
OP

RJ in Lafayette

Super Forum Fanatic
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 1999
Messages
11,376
Reaction score
11,063
Offline
And my response was a tad flippant, so let's just call a truce and do what we do best on this forum, which is to intelligently and respectfully exchange opinions that at times are very different. I agree that it might take several years to fairly evaluate a draft pick. But I disagree that it is inappropriate to comment on a draft selection until several years have passed. In fact, I have long taken the position that in fairness one should be critical of the personnal decision at the time it was made before being critical of it years later. And if we are going to wait years before commenting on the merits of draft selections, is there any reason to visit saintsreport.com?

I was a bit disappointed when we picked Vaccaro. But the disappointment was that we did not trade down in the first round and also pick up a second round pick, that we did not have a chance to pick Richardson or Lotulelei, and that--listening to Detillier on WWL talking about Floyd--we did not pick the more highly rated tackle who was still on the board. But it was what it was. We didn't have a chance to pick Richardson and Lotulelei, we probably didn't have a chance to trade down in the first and pick up a second, and Floyd may not be the defensive lineman for what we want to do on defense--which left two players.

Jarvis Jones may turn out to be a tremendous pro, but he had some real negatives. Between the two, I cannot say the Vaccaro pick was a bad one.

Guys, I don't always defend our organization. Allow me a chance to say something somewhat positive about what the front office did.

PS And I also wonder whether the Vaccaro pick will come up in Payton's next visit with Jerry.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom