What is it about health care that makes people feel entitled to it? (1 Viewer)

We should all just roll over and die when we get sick. Better to cull the heard that way.

Democratically elected governments in theory are supposed to reflect the "will of the people." Many people around the world have decided through their government, which is them, paid for by them, to pool resources to provide health care.


It's in a nation-states best interest to have a healthy, educated populace. This is something nations discovered way, way back in the 19th century. It's an old concept, and a proven one.



Hang on a second, guys. The question isn't whether or not nation states are better off with educated, healthy people or not. The question isn't should people be left sick, diseased, and crippled in order to "cull the heard (SIC)."

The question is why do people feel entitled to health care? Of course the effects of a healthy nation you guys stated are right on, but what makes health care something that people shouldn't have to obtain on their own? Why stop at health care?

I know the tired old arguments about costs of health care and when they skyrocketed out of control, and the differing opinions of why that happened. My intent is not to engage in a partisan crap-slinging fest about that.

Philosophically, though, why health care? We obtain jobs on our own, thereby funding our government. I think we all agree that politicians value that income more than our health. We obtain food on our own. We obtain shelter on our own, clothing on our own.

It just strikes me as a random pull. Sure, I'm a fan of small government, of leaving people to their own devices. I believe that the American view of rights as we know them do not impose obligations on others. I'm not hiding where my launching off point is.

Still, given my sensibilities, it seems oddly random.
 
Hang on a second, guys. The question isn't whether or not nation states are better off with educated, healthy people or not. The question isn't should people be left sick, diseased, and crippled in order to "cull the heard (SIC)."

The question is why do people feel entitled to health care? Of course the effects of a healthy nation you guys stated are right on, but what makes health care something that people shouldn't have to obtain on their own? Why stop at health care?

I know the tired old arguments about costs of health care and when they skyrocketed out of control, and the differing opinions of why that happened. My intent is not to engage in a partisan crap-slinging fest about that.

Philosophically, though, why health care? We obtain jobs on our own, thereby funding our government. I think we all agree that politicians value that income more than our health. We obtain food on our own. We obtain shelter on our own, clothing on our own.

It just strikes me as a random pull. Sure, I'm a fan of small government, of leaving people to their own devices. I believe that the American view of rights as we know them do not impose obligations on others. I'm not hiding where my launching off point is.

Still, given my sensibilities, it seems oddly random.


Who said they felt "entitled" to health care?
 
I admit there needs to be some changes to the current healthcare, but universal healthcare is a TERRIBLE idea. this country became a great nation based on competition, but remove that competition and guess what happens? Do you really want the government deciding for you what medications you should take? What healthcare options and treatment plans you can have? This is a bad idea on so many levels.

Take the forumlary for one. Without competition, government can, will and does often choose prescriptions with proven lower efficacy of those drugs just to save costs. If there's only one payer, what do you think is going to happen to the better drugs?

Second, with the reduction in reimbursement for the drug companies, they are going to have less and less money to spend on R+D. Other countries can get away with it, because they benefit from the medical advances made in the US. Also did you know that most drug companies charge us more for drugs than most other countries? They are practically giving them away in third world countries, and we are in effect subsidizing those third world countries as a result. So universal healthcare would affect those countries as well.

Furthermore, remember the flu shortage recently? I don't recall the entire story, but I remember the bottom line. Well the basic problem back then was the result of a Hillary Clinton initiative, and basically there were only like two or three manufacturers of the flu shot in the world. However one of the manufacturers had problems with their batch of flu shots. Therefore there was a huge shortage of the shot. People died because of the lack of competition and it wasn't profitable for other companies to make it. That's just from the flu shot. Lack of competition = less medical advancements and people dying from the governments choice (which you forfeit your ability to choose to the government.) They choose for you.

Ok those are just some of the points to consider for the drugs. Now think about the physician offices, hospitals, etc. Has anyone ever gone into the charity hospitals? or most VA hospitals? The comparison between a charity hospital and a nice for-profit hospital is insane. I felt like I was going to catch something just by walking in the door of those places. They have WAY out of date equipment, their construction codes are way out of date. Many government hospitals can't even perform the necessary construction upgrades because they are out of code, and if they performed construction, they'd be required to bring it up to code.

And you think we'd be saving money due to the economies of scale, but that would monumently increase due to people going to the dr for every little cut or bruise simply because it's free. What will happen? You'll get the insane waiting lines you have in Canada. However the rich Canadians come to the US to receive care! Where will we go when we desperately need something but can't get proper treatment? Mexico?

Not to mention there is already a huge shortage of clinical workers in the US due to the aging baby boomer population. There are not enough nurses, Dr's, etc. Universal healthcare will only greatly increase demand for healthcare, so that means much higher patient to nurse ratio's and lower quality of care. Oh yea, the increased strain + pressure on the system will only drive more workers out of the system to go work something else. If you don't work in healthcare, you probably won't understand this issue and just dismiss it, but it's a huge issue.

Healthcare is not a right. If we don't ensure food and housing for every American, how is healthcare more important? Last I checked, there are still homeless people out there and people starving. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that healthcare is a right.

I think we should help people, but don't kid yourself. I see people all the time driving up to their appointment in a brand new BMW, and then receive completely free healthcare from your tax dollars.

This post is already getting extremely long, so I'll end right there. But there are a million more reasons why this is a terrible idea.

We should help those who really need it (and we do, but any government program has those who scam it.) Also due to EMTALA, EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN AND ILLEGAL ALIEN has access to healthcare. NO PATIENT CAN BE DENIED TREATMENT IN AN EMERGENCY ROOM! That system needs to be adjusted, because you get a million people going to the costliest place to receive healthcare to get some antibiotics for a cold or whatever. But the point remains, everyone has some level of protection.

Costs of healthcare will just keep increasing exponentially with every technological advance. The average lifespan keeps increasing. We spend millions on people who are terminally ill just to delay their death a few more months at best. The people at the very end stage of their life are the costliest patients to treat, and they receive the least amount of utility from that healthcare dollar. Americans don't want to recognize that there are a limited amount of resources this world, and sometimes you just can't have everything. Going to a universal healthcare system won't change that, but it will almost completely remove your ability to choose for yourself and pretty much ensure a lower quality of care and healthcare experience. Oh yea, your taxes will go through the roof too. You become a government slave at that point. They will own you. And this country will slowly lose the very foundation which made it great. Capitalism.
 
Hang on a second, guys. The question isn't whether or not nation states are better off with educated, healthy people or not. The question isn't should people be left sick, diseased, and crippled in order to "cull the heard (SIC)."

The question is why do people feel entitled to health care? Of course the effects of a healthy nation you guys stated are right on, but what makes health care something that people shouldn't have to obtain on their own? Why stop at health care?

I know the tired old arguments about costs of health care and when they skyrocketed out of control, and the differing opinions of why that happened. My intent is not to engage in a partisan crap-slinging fest about that.

Philosophically, though, why health care? We obtain jobs on our own, thereby funding our government. I think we all agree that politicians value that income more than our health. We obtain food on our own. We obtain shelter on our own, clothing on our own.

It just strikes me as a random pull. Sure, I'm a fan of small government, of leaving people to their own devices. I believe that the American view of rights as we know them do not impose obligations on others. I'm not hiding where my launching off point is.

Still, given my sensibilities, it seems oddly random.

Lets try this philosophical take. Two children at age 10 live in America, one is hypotheicaly my son the other is my friends. I am rich and my friend is poor. I can afford health insurance and my friend can't. Both have been diagnosed with a disease, I can afford to go to the doctors and get my son treatment, he can't.

Question is, why is one child in this world gonna suffer and possiblly die because he was born to a poor family? Why is it moral or just in a country that says we are entitled to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness to say to its citizens that your ability to be happy and succeed depends on whether your born in the right income bracket?

Or more simply put a child can't get a job and buy healthcare, I find little to no substansive argument as to why we should not have a system that gets every child till at least the age of 18 health care.

As for adults I see healthcare as an extension of safety, in the same way we have Police, Fire and ambulance workers.
 
The question is why do people feel entitled to health care? Of course the effects of a healthy nation you guys stated are right on, but what makes health care something that people shouldn't have to obtain on their own? Why stop at health care?

I think some people have already provided reasonable answers that address everything you just posted in that response.

I don't believe the issue boils down to people feeling entitled to healthcare, so much as costs growing and people feeling healthcare costs are becoming an increasing burden -- to the point of being practically unattainable for a growing number of people.

One of the things we like to do as a society is pretend that everybody can have a great job with a great income as long as they work for it. No. Everybody cannot. Now maybe "anybody" can, but not everybody. So that means a lot of people will never be as financially well-positioned as others and our economy requires that segments of the population fall at different economic levels. We need bus drivers and janitors as much as we need bankers and dentists. Reality. Lower wage earners were already struggling with managing costs and that's gradually impacting more people up the income spectrum.

So if you're argument is that rising costs are just a reality we should accept and healthcare is a dwindling privilege for those people who can afford it, then you and I have a strong philosophical difference of opinion.
 
Lets try this philosophical take. Two children at age 10 live in America, one is hypotheicaly my son the other is my friends. I am rich and my friend is poor. I can afford health insurance and my friend can't. Both have been diagnosed with a disease, I can afford to go to the doctors and get my son treatment, he can't.

Question is, why is one child in this world gonna suffer and possiblly die because he was born to a poor family? Why is it moral or just in a country that says we are entitled to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness to say to its citizens that your ability to be happy and succeed depends on whether your born in the right income bracket?

Or more simply put a child can't get a job and buy healthcare, I find little to no substansive argument as to why we should not have a system that gets every child till at least the age of 18 health care.

As for adults I see healthcare as an extension of safety, in the same way we have Police, Fire and ambulance workers.

Yeah, it's a sad story and it pulls on heart strings. The answer is that the child would probably receive health service the way children did before Medicare and Medicaid were enacted in 1965 - through abundant private charity.

If you follow your logic to its conclusion, you end up at a scary place. Your logic indicates that the wealthy father's money should go to pay for the poor father's child without his consent.

But again, why stop at health care? What if that same poor kid doesn't have shoes? Or Happy Meals?

So what you are saying is that since it is very sad to see sick people who can't afford medical care (and I agree, I've seen more of this that I ever wanted to), it's okay to redistribute wealth? That's why health care is different than lawn mowing or sneakers?
 
I was promised healthcare for faithfully serving my 20 years of military service. I will retire in Oct this year. Now, I was promised it, but over the course of my 20 years I have seen even that "promise" dwendle....But I did my time and want what I was promised in the begining for my sacrifices that I have made in lost time from my family and things I would want not many but my worst enemy to see. I love my country and I do feel that I have earned what was promised, but to give it away to anyone would be a slap to my 20 years spent earning that promise. In all reality it will still not be free upon my retirement...I, as well as any military retiree has paid up their medical cost by the service and sacrifice made to this country!!

Aren't you really arguing that Healthcare is only valuable to you if it's expensive?

For instance, if healthcare costs increase 20% per year you feel you made a great deal. However, if healthcare costs decrease 50% per year you would feel slighted (more so if they decreased to $0/year)?

I commend you for doing 20 years of service; however, I believe that if that decision hinges on healthcare being free that's a sad statement about our culture and economy. It's not just you; as others have pointed out...they remain in their current job to receive health insurance they might not be able to afford or obtain in the open market.

An insurance story:
I have a brother-in-law who works fewer hours in order to make less money and receive a state healthcare card for his family because his employer doesn't provide health insurance. If he made more money, he'd have less money after buying insurance on the open market.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'd really like to hear from people who don't get their insurance from their employer, a Union or some other Group but instead have to purchase it in the open market.
 
The question is why do people feel entitled to health care? ......... Why stop at health care?

Why healthcare? Strictly because of emotion. Pure logic and society as a whole's best interest is not a part of their debate. People feel sorry for those who are sick, but are slightly less sympathetic to those who are healthy and don't provide for themselves. Plus the ever increasing cost of healthcare has many worried. However they don't realize that it's not really inflationary costs that's driving the increased cost of healthcare, because your healthcare dollars are buying a better product than your previous purchases and the lifespans of individuals are greatly increasing. The longer you live, the more healthcare dollars you utilize. etc.

"Why stop at healthcare?" HAHA you're funny... do you honestly think the liberals in this country are going to stop with just healthcare? Why stop there when we can increase welfare, retirement programs, aid to other countries, environmental project, food subsidies, and basically make everyone dependent on the government and destroy the basic foundation of this country. Capitalism and freedom. Basically everyone will be dependent on the government's dime, and must sacrifice their freedom as a result. Unfortunately I don't think this country knows what it is asking for until it will be too late. They just don't properly understand the issues, and stick to the emotional choices.
 
I think some people have already provided reasonable answers that address everything you just posted in that response.

I don't believe the issue boils down to people feeling entitled to healthcare, so much as costs growing and people feeling healthcare costs are becoming an increasing burden -- to the point of being practically unattainable for a growing number of people.

One of the things we like to do as a society is pretend that everybody can have a great job with a great income as long as they work for it. No. Everybody cannot. Now maybe "anybody" can, but not everybody. So that means a lot of people will never be as financially well-positioned as others and our economy requires that segments of the population fall at different economic levels. We need bus drivers and janitors as much as we need bankers and dentists. Reality. Lower wage earners were already struggling with managing costs and that's gradually impacting more people up the income spectrum.

So if you're argument is that rising costs are just a reality we should accept and healthcare is a dwindling privilege for those people who can afford it, then you and I have a strong philosophical difference of opinion.

I agree -- there have been some reasonable answers as to why health care is viewed differently. I can't jump on the boat that sails under the flag of government making health care affordable, but that's not what the post was about.

Regarding your last paragraph, no, I don't think that's the way it should go down. By now it should be obvious that I believe government is the reason costs are so expensive, but again, the intent of this post isn't to engage in that battle.

What I'm coming away with from this thread is that health issues are so emotional that people are willing to sign on for just about anything. The fact that a healthy population is in a nation's best interest makes the most sense. It's how you get there that is the big, hairy, un-winnable argument.
 
Lets try this philosophical take. Two children at age 10 live in America, one is hypotheicaly my son the other is my friends. I am rich and my friend is poor. I can afford health insurance and my friend can't. Both have been diagnosed with a disease, I can afford to go to the doctors and get my son treatment, he can't.

Question is, why is one child in this world gonna suffer and possiblly die because he was born to a poor family? Why is it moral or just in a country that says we are entitled to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness to say to its citizens that your ability to be happy and succeed depends on whether your born in the right income bracket?

Or more simply put a child can't get a job and buy healthcare, I find little to no substansive argument as to why we should not have a system that gets every child till at least the age of 18 health care.

As for adults I see healthcare as an extension of safety, in the same way we have Police, Fire and ambulance workers.


Take those same two children, and have them playing a game of catch in the front yard. One runs out to the street to catch the ball and gets hit by a bus and the other lives.

Life's unfair, too bad. Get over it. You know what else sucks? There are limited resources in this world. That's a Fact. Let the person who worked hard and earned it reap the rewards of their effort. If you don't have healthcare for your family, then hey, get another job and buy it! If your current employer doesn't offer it? Then hey, get two jobs. If you don't want to work two jobs, increase your education and just get a better job. Or quit purchasing tv, shut off the cell phone, quit buying starbucks, quit wasting money elsewhere to purchase your healthcare needs.

And most children can get coverage for treatment through some form in today's world. That's not a fair excuse. It is very rare percentage wise that this is an issue. You have Medicaid, Medicare and numerous other programs designed to help. You also have EMTALA.
 
Hang on a second, guys. The question isn't whether or not nation states are better off with educated, healthy people or not. The question isn't should people be left sick, diseased, and crippled in order to "cull the heard (SIC)."

The question is why do people feel entitled to health care? Of course the effects of a healthy nation you guys stated are right on, but what makes health care something that people shouldn't have to obtain on their own? Why stop at health care?

I know the tired old arguments about costs of health care and when they skyrocketed out of control, and the differing opinions of why that happened. My intent is not to engage in a partisan crap-slinging fest about that.

Philosophically, though, why health care? We obtain jobs on our own, thereby funding our government. I think we all agree that politicians value that income more than our health. We obtain food on our own. We obtain shelter on our own, clothing on our own.

It just strikes me as a random pull. Sure, I'm a fan of small government, of leaving people to their own devices. I believe that the American view of rights as we know them do not impose obligations on others. I'm not hiding where my launching off point is.

Still, given my sensibilities, it seems oddly random.

How about this:

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

I could see a tie in with health there...
 
The fact you dont pay for your health insurance? I dont know how you cant miss it...I pay a total of $919 a month ( of that my employer pays $250 toward it so my actual cost is $669 for me, my wife and daughter ) Nope nothing wrong there. Oh and my out of pocket deductible is $1000 - so for the next 8 doctor office visits I pay the full $136....yeah for me.

The "entitlement" feeling I am not sure of. I certainly dont think I am entitled to health care per se, I do however feel that my healthcare costs should be much less. After all, I pay taxes that amount to some folks' annual salary.

Now take a family of 3-4, with the husband and wife combined making $100,000 annual (gross) then subtract the taxes and get net. Prolly around $68,000. now take off on average of $700 per month (8400 annual ) and that leaves the family just under $60,000 to pay for all living expenses. that is cutting it really close, if not leaving them in debt each year.

That is a good example, but you can aim even lower. I work 2 jobs. One full time job which I make too much to get medicaid with. (full time $7.00 an hour is too much) My kids can get it though, so I work a 2nd part time job to help out with expenses. I am the one that needs medical insurance, but I can't afford it.

There HAS to be something that can be done. If I lived in Holland I could go to any doctor I wanted to and not pay a dime. But I don't want to live there. I want to be in America and get good health care. There is no way I can afford it. I seriously don't see how people make it at all.
 

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