What is it about health care that makes people feel entitled to it? (1 Viewer)

[Mr. Blue Sky]

I'm not saying that people don't need help. I'm saying some people abuse the help, and I want someone to propose something that will ensure this doesn't happen.

I think the problem with people like yourself is that you think there is this big conspiracy where all these poor people are "working the system" and you resent it-- when the truth is that, yes, there are and always will be a certain % of folks who try to slide by, but most Americans, taken as a group, are a hard-working bunch who sometimes have unforeseen circumstances to deal with. I think the crux of the argument is: Exactly how many people are taking advantage of the help, and how many really need it?? You may think you know-- but just because you've seen a few examples doens't mean that it's as out-of-hand as you'd like to believe. I have a close family member who works for HUD and sees these abuses up-close-and-personal; what he doesn't get a chance to see every day is the flipside, people who are doing for themselves, which IMO greatly outnumber the slackers.

 

[efil4stnias]

The insurance industry spends much more money lobbying for tort reform than they do paying defense lawyers. There are states, like the one I live in, that passed tort reform legislation capping punitives. My health insurance premiums have not decreased as a result. They float bogus stories about doctors having to leave your state, having to leave America, having to fly to Mars etc in order to find decent paying jobs. It's a joke. You've bought into hook, line and sinker. Tort reform would only have an effect on the middle class if insurance companies decided to pass the savings on to the consumer. I'll let you take one guess as to whether that will ever happen.

So could you imagine the SAVINGS of all the lobby $$$ if we had a national tort reform? Thats the point. Now thats not the cure-all, but it will be a start.

So dont give me the whole "hook line and sinker" jargon, I work in the insurance industry and see it first hand ( claims, lawsuits and settlements ). The reason your health premiums have not decreased is in part due to the litigiuos country we live in. Heck, louisiana has the LPCF - Louisiana Patient Compensation Fund. That caps suits at $300,000, allows for peer review mediation. But you can best believe there is an attorney (practicing or future one ) that will change that system. Its just a matter of time.

The cost - depends on the type of service you provide, but just an average family physician will pay 75% of his annual medical malpractice premium to the LPCF - so if his premium is $10,000 annual add another $7500 for the LPCF so he can have a limit on his exposure.
I dont know where you get your info from, or why you think that the information you hear "is a line to make you believe the health premiums are justified". what you dont fully understand how the industry works and I would suggest a little more research into why an insurance company charges what it does and how it arrives at that figure. If a hospital didnt have to pay $5,000,000 a year for professional liability with a $500,000 self-retention limit, it would be in a better position to offer services at a lower rate.

 

[MLU]

Government's role is to provide for the overall good of society and legislate accordingly.

However what most people fail to realize is that there's a fundamental difference between the way you think things "should" be and the reality of limited resources and natural human behavior. Due to finite resources, you have to make tough judgement calls as to how a society should allocate those resources. However since we have a pretty afluent country, a lot of people have a hard time grasping that concept and basic economic principles.

I agree, which is why it's time for the government to step in a level the playing field when it comes to healthcare. The industry has become more about lining pockets and making a profit than the people's best interests.

Capitalism is great, but left unchecked (like anything that's good for you) it becomes disastrous. People will continue to push to make more money and increase profits and eventually it will come at the cost of people's lives. Some may make the argument that this is already happening, which is why I feel it's time to have someone step in a puts an end to it.

Also, it's not the government's job to play charity. I believe charity is a very great thing, and I believe helping other people is very important. However it's simply not the government's job to decide for me how much and where I am supposed to spend my money, especially at the expense of our healthcare system.

The government's role is to serve the people. If that means helping people who have lost their homes or healthcare due to capitalism, then so be it. At one time, their job was important. It's not their fault that it's no longer important.

In a perfect world you could let businesses, capitalism, socialism, etc. run unchecked and it would run forever. However, in reality where people take advantage of others for their own personal gain, you need an equalizer.

 

[MLU]

I said 100% of Americans. The fact that you don't understand what 100% means says a lot about you...

100% of anything is moot because other than 100% of Americans being Americans, they have nothing else in common. I disregarded it because it's ridiculous.

 

[Taurus]

Have you any connection to the insurance industry at all? (other than a consumer)


You're kidding right? Lawsuits have EVERYTHING to do with the cost of Malpractice Insurance. Med mal isnt just to pay a claim, it pays to defend the suit.

Exactly! The Dr. doesn't give a rip about the payout, if it's capped or not, he cares about keeping his license. Therefore, he will still pay a high premium no matter what.

The med mal insruance company will fwd the suit to counsel and from there decide to pay the claim or defend the claim. In case you didnt know, med mal claims arent for $10,000. (thats usually the self-retention limit to begin with {aka deductible}).
If a doctor loses a malpracitce suit, he doesn't lose his job unless he loses his license. And if he does lose his license, he need not be practicing as a physician. What he does lose is the affordability of insurance.

That's what I was talking about. He's basically paying to put a malpractice lawyer on retainer.

Just 5 years ago, lawsuits against doctors were rising. Frivilous or not, the med mal companies still had the "duty to defend" its client. Providing counsel and other defense. Have you ever seen an attorney bill for a med mal defense?

And this would be fixed by capping payouts how, exactly?

That paragraph you wrote reeks of disdain for the insurance industry in general, and has me wondering why you have such a bias when it comes to insurance.

the red herring here is your statement that "if payouts were capped at zero". Then why even have a "payout", since $0=zero, nothing, nada. Dont detract from the real issue: suits are real, defense costs are real and thats how it is. So just as with ANY commodity, the real costs are passed on to the consumer...(see rising prices ). So now we have to pay more per visit to offset the cost of my primary care physicians insurance costs because Jane Doe in Iowa didnt follow her dr.s orders and got an infection after a minor surgery and sued the dr and won.

Actually, I've been married to someone in the healthcare insurance field for over ten years. She writes and analyzes the databases used for billing and patient tracking. We've discussed many times how to lower the cost of healthcare. Malpractice insurance hardly ever comes up because it just isn't a major engine. Capital investments are. MP insurance will always be there and would always be a certain cost even if monetary payouts stopped entirely.

let me add that I feel healthcare shouldn't be "universal", but it should be affordable on all levels. Keep in mind too that our healthcare premium dollars are alos increased , in part, by subsidized health care for the less fortunate. If a hospital gives out 1000 free tylenol tablets per month that cost them $1 per tablet, to those who are uninsured, and it gives out 500 to insured patients, guess what the cost of a Tylenol tablet will be to the insurance company for the insured patient? $3.50 per tablet to cover the 1500 tablets dispensed cost and profit from it. ($3.00 x 500 = $1500/cost of tablets ; $.50 x 1500 = $750 profit )

I think we actually agree on more than you think we do. What I see too much of is efforts by government to find ways to pay insanely high healthcare costs instead of finding ways to limit those costs. Letting our hypothetical hospital search the free market to maybe find that Tylenol at $.50 each is one way. Subsidizing large capital investments is another. Capping payouts on malpractice claims just isn't a big enough fix for the pain it causes. If an HMO knowingly retains a marginal surgeon and he leaves a sponge in my chest, resulting in my death, I want to know that my family can sue for a large enough amount to cause the HMO to make absolutely sure such a thing doesn't happen again to anyone else.

 

[Dragon]

I live in a country with FREE healthcare and Free education for all

I had Cancer 16 years ago, but received the treatment I needed and is officially cured. The total cost of my treatment was >$600000, the meds for the chemo costing almost a third of that amount. At the time I was a full time student, my husband working to support both of us. There is no way we could have been able to afford a medical insurance that would have covered that.

The healthcare system is not perfect - to get treatment for minor problems you often have to wait, but you can always get to see your GP the same day, and treatment for critical illnesses are very fast. In fact if the official system can't fit you in within a few weeks (or less depending on the illness), the state will pay for treatment abroad.

The free healthcare will not pay for cosmetic treatments and I will have to pay some of my dental expenses. Most common vaccinations are free except the flu vaccine which is free for elderly and those the doctors think are at risk.

We have a foster daughter who is in college. She doesn't pay tuition, and receive a yearly scholarship of $7.000 for living expenses.

My husband and I both take home very nice salaries, but the State takes the larger share. I pay 54% tax so for the last 10 years we have both paid a lot of money back to the State. Of cause I would like to pay less in taxes. but I still think I got the better part of the deal though - I'm still alive and able to enjoy my family,my work and life in general

 

[TPS]

>>So could you imagine the SAVINGS of all the lobby $$$ if we had a national tort reform? Thats the point. Now thats not the cure-all, but it will be a start.

Again, give me the numbers. Malpractice insurance is what, almost a percent of healthcare costs? So if we capped them, they'd reduce our costs by less than a half of a percent but people give up their rights when some idiot doctor cuts off their wrong foot or leaves a scalpel inside? So you all can get better returns on your money? I don't think so. Keep throwing "trial lawyers" out there as the boogeymen if you have to. Those of us in the real world aren't buying it. It's simply another way for the already profitable insurance companies to become even more lucrative.

>>You work in insurance. You people are making money no matter what policies you write.

Yep.

>>So dont give me the whole "hook line and sinker" jargon, I work in the insurance industry and see it first hand ( claims, lawsuits and settlements ). The reason your health premiums have not decreased is in part due to the litigiuos country we live in. Heck, louisiana has the LPCF - Louisiana Patient Compensation Fund. That caps suits at $300,000, allows for peer review mediation. But you can best believe there is an attorney (practicing or future one ) that will change that system. Its just a matter of time.

You guys have much more lobbying power than do honest citizens. I don't mean to rain all the hate down on you, but insurance companies proved how honest and what friends they are to their clients after Hurricane Katrina. You people scam the life out of hardworking Americans and have the clout to mandate certain coverages on us (e.g. Auto Insurance). You guys throw out "tort reform" but most of us know who the real bad guys are. And the audacity of Allstate to promote the Sugar Bowl and BCS Championship lying through their blackman spokesman's teeth that if you have them, "you're in good hands."

I've got an avatar that specificially addresses what I think about insurance companies. It's a :redx:

TPS

 

[CT Saints Fan]

I live in a country with FREE healthcare and Free education for all

I had Cancer 16 years ago, but received the treatment I needed and is officially cured. The total cost of my treatment was >$600000, the meds for the chemo costing almost a third of that amount. At the time I was a full time student, my husband working to support both of us. There is no way we could have been able to afford a medical insurance that would have covered that.

The healthcare system is not perfect - to get treatment for minor problems you often have to wait, but you can always get to see your GP the same day, and treatment for critical illnesses are very fast. In fact if the official system can't fit you in within a few weeks (or less depending on the illness), the state will pay for treatment abroad.

The free healthcare will not pay for cosmetic treatments and I will have to pay some of my dental expenses. Most common vaccinations are free except the flu vaccine which is free for elderly and those the doctors think are at risk.

We have a foster daughter who is in college. She doesn't pay tuition, and receive a yearly scholarship of $7.000 for living expenses.

My husband and I both take home very nice salaries, but the State takes the larger share. I pay 54% tax so for the last 10 years we have both paid a lot of money back to the State. Of cause I would like to pay less in taxes. but I still think I got the better part of the deal though - I'm still alive and able to enjoy my family,my work and life in general

That's great news about your health and beating cancer. However, that 54% at the bottom shows that in reality neither the health care nor the education are actually free. Somebody's still paying for it.

One of the topics that comes up all the time here is about choice. Can you choose your doctor and your school? Or do you attend school based on where you live? Do you see a specific doctor that you are assigned to?

 

[Saint Mike]

My husband and I both take home very nice salaries, but the State takes the larger share. I pay 54% tax so for the last 10 years we have both paid a lot of money back to the State. Of cause I would like to pay less in taxes. but I still think I got the better part of the deal though - I'm still alive and able to enjoy my family,my work and life in general

Does that 54% include sales tax or VAT, property tax, etc. or is that just your payroll deductions? Do you have to pay an additional premium and/or deductible for your health care?

 

[TPS]

>>That's great news about your health and beating cancer. However, that 54% at the bottom shows that in reality neither the health care nor the education are actually free. Somebody's still paying for it.

I'd encourage you to do the math. 54% is a high "taxation rate" but what's the cost to attend a major university? What's the cost for healthcare? How much do you pay in property taxes and then sales taxes (you don't have state income taxes in Texas, but most of us do and have commensurately lower sales taxes). When you total it all up, you're probably going to come close to 50%.

TPS

 

[Dragon]

That's great news about your health and beating cancer. However, that 54% at the bottom shows that in reality neither the health care nor the education are actually free. Somebody's still paying for it.

One of the topics that comes up all the time here is about choice. Can you choose your doctor and your school? Or do you attend school based on where you live? Do you see a specific doctor that you are assigned to?

I'm free to choose which specialist and which hospital I want to go to - I use a hearing aid and attend a clinic in another city because they are better doctors - no problems with that.

When it come to my GP/family doctor I have to decide on a yearly basis. I can change to another family doctor once every year if I want to.

My daughter has chosen the college she goes to, but she did have to make a certain GPA in order to get in. It is not like every young man and woman in the country can study to be doctors, there are only so many schools and if more apply than can be accepted, the selection is done based on your GPA.

 

[CT Saints Fan]

>>That's great news about your health and beating cancer. However, that 54% at the bottom shows that in reality neither the health care nor the education are actually free. Somebody's still paying for it.

I'd encourage you to do the math. 54% is a high "taxation rate" but what's the cost to attend a major university? What's the cost for healthcare? How much do you pay in property taxes and then sales taxes (you don't have state income taxes in Texas, but most of us do and have commensurately lower sales taxes). When you total it all up, you're probably going to come close to 50%.

TPS

I know the math. But at least some of my taxes I can control. I can cut back my spending and pay less sales tax. I can by less house, or move to a specific location, and pay less property tax. Etc.

 

[Saint Mike]

>>That's great news about your health and beating cancer. However, that 54% at the bottom shows that in reality neither the health care nor the education are actually free. Somebody's still paying for it.

I'd encourage you to do the math. 54% is a high "taxation rate" but what's the cost to attend a major university? What's the cost for healthcare? How much do you pay in property taxes and then sales taxes (you don't have state income taxes in Texas, but most of us do and have commensurately lower sales taxes). When you total it all up, you're probably going to come close to 50%.

TPS

But the element of choice has been replaced by government coercion. Maybe I don't want good health care, maybe my kids won't go to college. Surely a self-proclaimed anarchist can appreciate the hesitance in wanting to turn over control of a majority of personal income to the government.

 

[efil4stnias]

I think we actually agree on more than you think we do. What I see too much of is efforts by government to find ways to pay insanely high healthcare costs instead of finding ways to limit those costs. Letting our hypothetical hospital search the free market to maybe find that Tylenol at $.50 each is one way. Subsidizing large capital investments is another. Capping payouts on malpractice claims just isn't a big enough fix for the pain it causes. If an HMO knowingly retains a marginal surgeon and he leaves a sponge in my chest, resulting in my death, I want to know that my family can sue for a large enough amount to cause the HMO to make absolutely sure such a thing doesn't happen again to anyone else.

But the suit will not affect the HMO, only the doctor and hospital where the surgery was performed. And guess what covers that? And believe me the HMO,PPO require any hopsital/dr/nurse to carry, maintain med mal for the benefit of the HMO/PPO. (protection against lawsuits )

Again, I am not saying that med mal is the driving force behind health rates, it is part of the engine. And I do agree that fixing the med mal would not provide enough relief to drastically reduce health care premiums.

I definately agree that more need to be addressed than just malpractice insurance. But when a doctor is spending $40,000 annual on med mal off of his after tax income, whereas 6 years ago he was paying $8000...you can see where the increase will be felt. It seems like a vicious cylce that somewhere along the "Ring" needs to be broken

 

[Dragon]

>>That's great news about your health and beating cancer. However, that 54% at the bottom shows that in reality neither the health care nor the education are actually free. Somebody's still paying for it.

I'd encourage you to do the math. 54% is a high "taxation rate" but what's the cost to attend a major university? What's the cost for healthcare? How much do you pay in property taxes and then sales taxes (you don't have state income taxes in Texas, but most of us do and have commensurately lower sales taxes). When you total it all up, you're probably going to come close to 50%.

TPS

Does that 54% include sales tax or VAT, property tax, etc. or is that just your payroll deductions? Do you have to pay an additional premium and/or deductible for your health care?

The VAT is 25% and the property tax is .8%, the above mentioned 54% is the payroll deductions. I don't have to pay any premiums or deductibles on my healthcare, which actually covers me in all of Europe, not only Denmark. Energy taxes keep the gas price around $9/gallon, so yes our taxes are high. Most people though, like the system the way it is and don't mind the taxes