What makes a good SAM OLB in the 3-4? (1 Viewer)

[sammymvpknight]

I think Wilson's speed would be best used a run and chase tackler. He is the most sound tackler on the team...long arms drag down tackler. I like his ability to be a spy from the inside as well on faster QB's. I like his length in clogging up lanes in the middle of the field while dropping into shallow zones. I think he does a better job@ changing directions than u give him credit for. He is also a fundamentally sound FB player. He doesn't get sucked in on play actions and he is usually where hes supposed to be. He'd be an excellent A gap blitzer.

What i don't like about him is he isn't very instinctive....or he hasn't shown he can be. I think thats why SP has Vilma slated as a WILB because of his ability to diagnose the play and run to the ball.


Just my own input but the 3-4 under is very similar to the 4-3 under which was used in the Tampa 2 if im not mistaken.

3 of the most vital parts in that system are the RDE, WOLB, and the 3tech.


Well with that being said the same must be said for the 3-4 under except its the ROLB,WILB,and the 3tech still.

Well with ellis leaving we still have a hole@ 3tech. Thats if you view Cam Jordan as a 5tech and Hicks/Bunk as 1 techs. Of course you could view hicks as a 3tech Jordan as the 5 and Bunk as the 1 in which case ud need some backups there.

Wilson was brought in by 3G because he saw a SAM or SOLB. He saw a guy that could blitz on 3rd down but set the edge and cover TE's in the base. IF he is very good@ it remains to be seen as we've had a small sample size. The SOLB in the 3-4 under has basically the SAME responsibilities. So I think thats why you will see the team slot him here. Also because WILB is crowded in theory with Vilma/Hawthorne slotted there.

Respectfully disagree on two of your points. You say that Wilson was brought in to play SOLB...but Williams did not play him in that role. He played him as an ILB in 3-4 and other 3-down lineman sets.

People bash GW around here...but the man knew his personnel and how to best utilize him. Wilson saw very little work his rookie season...but all of flashes were seen at ILB. He played ILB in college as well where he was very good. Last season Spags tried to fit Wilson into a role he was not cut out for. He is NOT an edge rusher. He is too tight in the hips and cannot run the arch. He had three sacks last season. One was the game clincher against SD when Wilson had his sack/fumble against a hobbled LT. You or I could have made that sack...the LT was out there on one leg. His next sack was against the Falcons...when Matt Ryan tripped and fell to the ground. Wilson was just the lucky guy to be closest to him to touch him down. The last sack was the variety more consistent with his rookie season. He played ILB against the Eagles...shot up the A gap like a rocket and sacked Vick.

I love Martez Wilson. I was as excited as anyone when we drafted him. He was actually considering in the late 1st round. But HE WILL FAIL AS A 3-4 SOLB. He is too tight to run the arch and turn and run with TEs. Put him back at his natural position...the position that he thrived at in college...and the position he showed promise at in his rookie season: WILB. Vilma is currently at that spot...but he won't be forever. Groom Wilson as the future in that spot. I don't know where that leaves Hawthorne...and don't care. Wilson is our future (if we use him wisely). Hawthorne would a much better fit at SOLB than Wilson anyway (though I would hope it would only be as depth).

I do agree that the Saints will be looking for a 3-tech if Hicks plays NT (which I believe that he will). But it sure as heck looks like the Saints brought back Smith to start. I think that they intend on keeping Smith on the right side and that he will play 3-tech...and they will keep Cam Jordan outside at 5-tech. Will Smith may no longer be a sack-master...but he is still a squatty guy with a low COG that may actually work as a stop-gap at 3-tech. He actually played the position quite well two years ago when GW was playing primarily 3-man fronts late in 2011. He isn't going to be a huge sack guy...but you don't need him to in that role. I think that he could provide enough rush to free up Galette.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Respectfully disagree on two of your points. You say that Wilson was brought in to play SOLB...but Williams did not play him in that role. He played him as an ILB in 3-4 and other 3-down lineman sets.

People bash GW around here...but the man knew his personnel and how to best utilize him. Wilson saw very little work his rookie season...but all of flashes were seen at ILB. He played ILB in college as well where he was very good. Last season Spags tried to fit Wilson into a role he was not cut out for. He is NOT an edge rusher. He is too tight in the hips and cannot run the arch. He had three sacks last season. One was the game clincher against SD when Wilson had his sack/fumble against a hobbled LT. You or I could have made that sack...the LT was out there on one leg. His next sack was against the Falcons...when Matt Ryan tripped and fell to the ground. Wilson was just the lucky guy to be closest to him to touch him down. The last sack was the variety more consistent with his rookie season. He played ILB against the Eagles...shot up the A gap like a rocket and sacked Vick.

I love Martez Wilson. I was as excited as anyone when we drafted him. He was actually considering in the late 1st round. But HE WILL FAIL AS A 3-4 SOLB. He is too tight to run the arch and turn and run with TEs. Put him back at his natural position...the position that he thrived at in college...and the position he showed promise at in his rookie season: WILB. Vilma is currently at that spot...but he won't be forever. Groom Wilson as the future in that spot. I don't know where that leaves Hawthorne...and don't care. Wilson is our future (if we use him wisely). Hawthorne would a much better fit at SOLB than Wilson anyway (though I would hope it would only be as depth).

I do agree that the Saints will be looking for a 3-tech if Hicks plays NT (which I believe that he will). But it sure as heck looks like the Saints brought back Smith to start. I think that they intend on keeping Smith on the right side and that he will play 3-tech...and they will keep Cam Jordan outside at 5-tech. Will Smith may no longer be a sack-master...but he is still a squatty guy with a low COG that may actually work as a stop-gap at 3-tech. He actually played the position quite well two years ago when GW was playing primarily 3-man fronts late in 2011. He isn't going to be a huge sack guy...but you don't need him to in that role. I think that he could provide enough rush to free up Galette.

I disagree on your disagreement. Several times his rookie year he was lined up as a SOLB. He was brought in to replace Scott Fujita. Had the exact same size that 3G liked out of his SOLB.

You saying he will fail is more of an opinion...while strong its still an opinion. You really don't know how well he will do but i don't think ur giving him enough credit.

You see you have to think of this 3-4 under as a basic 4-3. Although you want to put him in@ the ILB spot he doesn't fit as well as you think he does. Even I would have liked to see him@ the spot but again you want someone instinctive @ the WILB as its essentially the reason why Vilma will be there.

I also agree tht Martez isn't a natural passrusher...but the role of the SOLB isn't to be a passrusher primarily. Its to set the edge against the run, cover , then rush the passer. Primarily in that order while the WOLB would be rush the passer, set the edge, cover. They use the same skillset but with different frequencies.


I could be wrong about him being in to play SOLB but im sure someone can back me up on that as im about 90% sure thats what he was brought in to play and thats also the position he was played@ sometimes during his Rookie Season. He was also used a chess piece to blitz the A gap which is why u may think he was used as an ILB.

 

[LSSpam]

Respectfully disagree on two of your points. You say that Wilson was brought in to play SOLB...but Williams did not play him in that role. He played him as an ILB in 3-4 and other 3-down lineman sets.

....

I love Martez Wilson. I was as excited as anyone when we drafted him. He was actually considering in the late 1st round. But HE WILL FAIL AS A 3-4 SOLB. He is too tight to run the arch and turn and run with TEs. Put him back at his natural position...the position that he thrived at in college...and the position he showed promise at in his rookie season: WILB. Vilma is currently at that spot...but he won't be forever. Groom Wilson as the future in that spot. I don't know where that leaves Hawthorne...and don't care. Wilson is our future (if we use him wisely). Hawthorne would a much better fit at SOLB than Wilson anyway (though I would hope it would only be as depth).

I just don't know who you're putting at SOLB if not Wilson though. Hawthorne can play SOLB, but he's not going to excel and I'm pretty sure he's said he hates the strongside.

Then again, I imagine most linebackers do.

 

[LSSpam]

I could be wrong about him being in to play SOLB but im sure someone can back me up on that as im about 90% sure thats what he was brought in to play and thats also the position he was played@ sometimes during his Rookie Season. He was also used a chess piece to blitz the A gap which is why u may think he was used as an ILB.

The reason people keep projecting Wilson at OLB is

1) He's got the measurables. He's probably our biggest linebacker outside of Galette

2) His work at DE. We've seen him rush the passer in an edge situation and he looked pretty competent at it

3) And yeah, he's played OLB. He played it in Illinois some. They moved him to MLB because that's the impact spot in Zook's defense, but he started off as an OLB. He's certainly lined up there more often for the Saints than at MLB. Williams did, ostensibly, bring him in to be the SOLB. Though he's probably played more downs as a DE in the NFL now then either of them.

CSC Interview: One-on-One with Saints Linebacker Martez Wilson (Part Two) - Canal Street Chronicles


The big question mark is his coverage ability on tight ends. David Hawthorne is probably better there, but I mean, I know we throw this "oh he's too tight" "has bad hips" etc around....dude's a player. He's one of the best athletes we got on the team. How much of this is really hesitation and bad form and how much is actual physical limitation? It's one thing to talk about how slow Roman Harper is at turning and running, but Wilson? I get that straight-line speed and having the ability to flip around and run are separate things but still....

Anyways, it's all gross speculation at this point

 

[CitySaint]

I was worried about coverage in regards to a SAM linbacker and who would fit there, but Justin Houston was thrown at 25 times, thats the most for any 3-4 outside linebacker. The top 2 responsibilities in my opinion for a SAM in the 3-4 would be setting the edge against strongside runs and rushing the passer, rarely are they thrown at by opposing QB's and thats not due to stellar coverage skills by them. Less than 20% of Houstons snaps were in coverage. Spencer with Dallas had 163 snaps in coverage being thrown at 24 times and 873 total snaps. I assume he is the definition atleast from last year of what we would want in a SAM.

Wilson is not good at one of the top 2 responsibilities being an OLB. He doesn't have the bend or flexibility to turn the corner rushing the passer. Perhaps coming in fro a wider angle would benefit Wilson, I don't know but even if he was stellar in coverage playing 3-4 almost renders that ability moot.

 

[JackDiesel]

I was worried about coverage in regards to a SAM linbacker and who would fit there, but Justin Houston was thrown at 25 times, thats the most for any 3-4 outside linebacker. The top 2 responsibilities in my opinion for a SAM in the 3-4 would be setting the edge against strongside runs and rushing the passer, rarely are they thrown at by opposing QB's and thats not due to stellar coverage skills by them. Less than 20% of Houstons snaps were in coverage. Spencer with Dallas had 163 snaps in coverage being thrown at 24 times and 873 total snaps. I assume he is the definition atleast from last year of what we would want in a SAM.

Wilson is not good at one of the top 2 responsibilities being an OLB. He doesn't have the bend or flexibility to turn the corner rushing the passer. Perhaps coming in fro a wider angle would benefit Wilson, I don't know but even if he was stellar in coverage playing 3-4 almost renders that ability moot.

Excellent post. I think there is a misconception about the responsibilities of the strongside OLB, even I didn't realize they were used in coverage so little. Also makes sense given our interest in Kruger as I doubt he's exceptional in coverage.

 

[LSSpam]

Less than 20% of Houstons snaps were in coverage. Spencer with Dallas had 163 snaps in coverage being thrown at 24 times and 873 total snaps. I assume he is the definition atleast from last year of what we would want in a SAM.

That just doesn't sound right. The 25 "targets against" may be accurate, I mean if the average defense faces 550 pass attempts, and a linebacker covers on half of them, that's 275 coverage attempts. 25 targets would be "10% of the time they targeted the linebacker", which seems within reason (given that the linebacker is generally not covering the primary receiving option), but only 20% of those snaps being coverage sounds low.

You sure they're counting when the linebacker drops back in zone?

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

The reason people keep projecting Wilson at OLB is

1) He's got the measurables. He's probably our biggest linebacker outside of Galette

2) His work at DE. We've seen him rush the passer in an edge situation and he looked pretty competent at it

3) And yeah, he's played OLB. He played it in Illinois some. They moved him to MLB because that's the impact spot in Zook's defense, but he started off as an OLB. He's certainly lined up there more often for the Saints than at MLB. Williams did, ostensibly, bring him in to be the SOLB. Though he's probably played more downs as a DE in the NFL now then either of them.

CSC Interview: One-on-One with Saints Linebacker Martez Wilson (Part Two) - Canal Street Chronicles


The big question mark is his coverage ability on tight ends. David Hawthorne is probably better there, but I mean, I know we throw this "oh he's too tight" "has bad hips" etc around....dude's a player. He's one of the best athletes we got on the team. How much of this is really hesitation and bad form and how much is actual physical limitation? It's one thing to talk about how slow Roman Harper is at turning and running, but Wilson? I get that straight-line speed and having the ability to flip around and run are separate things but still....

Anyways, it's all gross speculation at this point

I was referring to when he was here with 3G. Sammy said he was used primarily as a ILB during those days but i think 3G brought him in to replace Fujita @ SAM...and im sure i saw him on the line@ the Sam position on more than one occasion.


With that being said....I think he has the ability to cover TE's. Hes got the size and long arms to make it difficult to fit the ball in..even if hes a step late the throw has to be nearly perfect for him not to get a hand on it. As long as he doesn't allow leaky yardage im fine with TE's catching a few passes on him........those guys will get there due.


With that being said SOLB is the only real place to slot him right now. I think he can play it i just don't think hes a natural pass-rusher like some guys are.

What im most excited about though...is the fact that Rob Ryan will probably be working with the OLB's so if theres anyone that can coach him up its him.

He got 10+ sacks out of Derrick Burgess of all people...and Anthony Spencer who people were wondering when the light would finally flicker on was able to put up double digit sacks last year so im a little amped about what i think Ryan can do for him.

 

[CitySaint]

That just doesn't sound right. The 25 "targets against" may be accurate, I mean if the average defense faces 550 pass attempts, and a linebacker covers on half of them, that's 275 coverage attempts. 25 targets would be "10% of the time they targeted the linebacker", which seems within reason (given that the linebacker is generally not covering the primary receiving option), but only 20% of those snaps being coverage sounds low.

You sure they're counting when the linebacker drops back in zone?

I intended to say the time Houston was targeted vs his snaps in coverage. 25 targets is the most targets odf an OLB not the average of all.

Houston has 339 pass rush snaps, Spencer 299
Houston 170 coverage snaps, Spencer 163

Houston total passing snaps 509
Spencer total pasing snaps 463

 

[LSSpam]

I intended to say the time Houston was targeted vs his snaps in coverage. 25 targets is the most targets odf an OLB not the average of all.

Houston has 339 pass rush snaps, Spencer 299
Houston 170 coverage snaps, Spencer 163

Houston total passing snaps 509
Spencer total pasing snaps 463

Yeah ok, that sounds better a 66/33 split still sounds a little high but maybe I'm just misjudging things when I watch.

But so we're clear, we're not talking about performance on 25 snaps, we're talking performance over 160 snaps, about 10 a game. Ostensibly if someone was terrible in coverage they'd be targeted much more frequently.


Personally, I actually agree with you. I think Wilson can be perfectly competent in coverage, certainly the benchmark for linebacker and safeties isn't exactly that high here in New Orleans the past 7 years anyways. But it is a consideration. He will be in coverage at least 1/3rd of the pass attempts.

 

[St. Widge]

Yeah ok, that sounds better a 66/33 split still sounds a little high but maybe I'm just misjudging things when I watch.

But so we're clear, we're not talking about performance on 25 snaps, we're talking performance over 160 snaps, about 10 a game. Ostensibly if someone was terrible in coverage they'd be targeted much more frequently.


Personally, I actually agree with you. I think Wilson can be perfectly competent in coverage, certainly the benchmark for linebacker and safeties isn't exactly that high here in New Orleans the past 7 years anyways. But it is a consideration. He will be in coverage at least 1/3rd of the pass attempts.

Out of curiosity, do you see any LBs in the draft that you think can play the SAM position? It seems to me that is the position that we have been missing for years and I realize that Wilson might be the guy, although you think he might fit better inside. So, who has the size to set the edge or punch the TE along with the speed and agility to cover the modern TE?

Seems to me that Mingo has the speed and given that he was a DE, he might have the strength, but I don't recall him being in coverage much at LSU and I doubt he has the technique. Can Jordan or Jones do those things? I know Jordan played a decent amount of coverage at Oregon, but does he have the strength to set the edge? Or is there someone further down that can fill the role?

 

[LSSpam]

Out of curiosity, do you see any LBs in the draft that you think can play the SAM position? It seems to me that is the position that we have been missing for years and I realize that Wilson might be the guy, although you think he might fit better inside. So, who has the size to set the edge or punch the TE along with the speed and agility to cover the modern TE?

Seems to me that Mingo has the speed and given that he was a DE, he might have the strength, but I don't recall him being in coverage much at LSU. Can Jordan or Jones do those things? I know Jordan played a decent amount of coverage at Oregon, but does he have the strength to set the edge? Or is there someone further down that can fill the role?

Elliasjwilliams can probably tell you better than me, I only have passing familiarity (at best) with many of the prospects.

The inherent problem with guys like Mingo is you're doing a lot of "projecting", "well he should be able to do this because..." Instead of "oh hey, look how well he covered that tight end". That always makes me nervous, but a lot of coaches think if the tools are there their expert and superior coaching will make the difference. Of course, a lot of coaches are also wrong.

Anyways, I know Dion Jordan had a lot of pass coverage responsibility in college, so he's the first guy off most people's tongue. He's also got those rangey arms and good height which would be excellent against guys like Jimmy Graham, but might hurt him leverage-wise in run defense. I don't like Jarvis Jones for it, he's a pursuit guy, but he's really not all that big to play the weak side backer. Jarvis Jones actually may be better served going to a 4-3 team that'll use him like Denver does Von Miller then a 3-4 team. If he went to us I'd actually think he'd fit better as a WILB, but I'm betting some people will laugh a me for that.


I actually really like Okafor for the spot, though 1) we're running into the same issue with Mingo here and doing a lot of projecting and 2) most people would probably want to put him on the weak side.


Keep in mind though, as a for instance, two of the names already mentioned in this thread, Houston and Spencer, were defensive ends in college. So no matter what we do its probably going to be something of a gamble. Dion Jordan, to my knowledge, is probably the "safest" bet.

 

[LSSpam]

I guess the sort of unspoken concern I've been dancing around all offseason is this

We're basically talking about having Harper, Lofton, and a SAM on one side of the field frequently next season.


....who the **** is going to cover Vernon Davis?

I get that it's a problem most teams have, it's why Davis was drafted in the top ten, why New England plunked down big money on Gronkowski, and why Graham may get even more next year, but still, man, there's going to be a few plays next year where it's going to look pretty bad.

 

[St. Widge]

I guess the sort of unspoken concern I've been dancing around all offseason is this

We're basically talking about having Harper, Lofton, and a SAM on one side of the field frequently next season.


....who the **** is going to cover Vernon Davis?

I get that it's a problem most teams have, it's why Davis was drafted in the top ten, why New England plunked down big money on Gronkowski, and why Graham may get even more next year, but still, man, there's going to be a few plays next year where it's going to look pretty bad.

No doubt and that's my concern. I'm not sure the last time we had a SLB that could cover the TE. Rickey could do it, but that was back when TEs were all Hoby Brenner and John Tice types. It just seems like the SLB is a position that now requires nearly the perfect player. He has to be big, strong, fast, able to take on blocks, set the edge and cover 6' 5" guys who run 4.6 and have the agility of a cat. Who are the guys in the NFL that can do all those things? It seems like it's much like the SS position. You either have a guy who can set the edge or you have a guy who is good in coverage.

It's just not an easy task. But, what can you do when you can't find that guy? I guess you try to take away the outside guys and get pressure on the QB so he can't get it to those modern TEs. Either that or you give the SLB Safety help, I guess.

 

[JackDiesel]

I guess the sort of unspoken concern I've been dancing around all offseason is this

We're basically talking about having Harper, Lofton, and a SAM on one side of the field frequently next season.


....who the **** is going to cover Vernon Davis?

I get that it's a problem most teams have, it's why Davis was drafted in the top ten, why New England plunked down big money on Gronkowski, and why Graham may get even more next year, but still, man, there's going to be a few plays next year where it's going to look pretty bad.

Jesus Christ! I haven't even considered that. It's not just Vernon Davis or Gronkowski we have to worry about but even any above average TE.

I wonder if Ryan will be able to scheme around that, having the SOLB jam and chip the TE at the line. Running the 3-5 isn't an option all year and we all saw the results of Harper playing in space.

I can see why Ryan has always targeted a SS early in the defenses he's coached, Michael Huff in Oakland and TJ Ward in Cleveland.