What to expect with the move to the 3-4: Personnel and Scheme (1 Viewer)

[SaintsJunkie]

nice post, I am worried about our secondary, It wasn't good even with GW except with sharper, would love to see a FS that is not always late to see the play develop . and a corner with ball skills.

 

[TCUDan]

I just didnt see that watching him, I thought he was slow..when I watched him in Seattle he looked slow...he plays well in space so he can play zones but to stick man to man with a player is not his strenght, I see him as a down hill type of backer at 6'0 240lbs he is a thumper...but we will see how players fit, I still see him as an Inside Linebacker I dont think he can cover tightends with great success, think that SAM spot better fits Wilson but we will probably see Hawthorne there when camp starts.

He's a 4.6-4.7 guy, for what that's worth. So he's between Lofton and Vilma in terms of athleticism. I think right now the way it'll be deployed is Hawthorne on 1st/2nd down with Wilson coming in in passing situations to match up on TEs and rush the passer.

I haven't seen enough to tell me Wilson is ready to be an every down player. That said, I would be thrilled if he proves that he is... because he has some serious talent.

 

[crawfish2010]

Somebody needs to cut you a check.

 

[jerzysko]

He's one of the guys I forgot to mention... he did a great job at the nickel spot down the stretch, I think we'd be crazy not to keep him.

TCU...

You said the secondary will stay the same? What I see is MJ plays better closed to the line and Abdul-Quddus is the most instinctive Safety on the team. Please tell me you can see Quddus at FS and Jenk playing SS as starters next year???

 

[Pensacola]

Great read and analysis Dan. Thanks. Care to comment, guess on the future of Greg Romeus?

 

[CanadaSaint2006]

Thanks again TCUDan.

I'm glad we're apparently not going to run a 2-gap defense. I now realize that when I would think of a traditional 3-4, a 2-gap is what would come to mind for me. I wouldn't be much in favor of three fat guys on the DL just taking up space, and the LB's doing everything. Sounds like a 1-gap will allow the DL to contribute in many ways.

As far as the LB's, I just want to find a way to get Gallette and Tez on the field at the same time. I like the 5-2 concept.

At CB, I hope we can find the solution, given all of the guys we've drafted over the last few years.

I still don't think our starting safeties will cut it. I see promise from our backups, but maybe that's just a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence.

 

[ETWhoDat]

If Hawthorne didn't feel comfortable it was because he spent all offseason/preseason learning another position and suffered a handful of injuries throughout the year. Honestly SAM is probably the easiest of the 3 to master. He should be fine.

I can guarantee you that Hawhorne won't be playing the strong side OLB. Hawthorne and Lofton will man the middle. Hawthorne is in no way, shape, or form a 4-3 over/under SAM. I don't know for certain who will play SOLB, but I bet it's Tez. You can say a backer is a backer is a backer but certain guys are better suited to play certain positions. When we drafted Tez my immediate thought was finally a legit SAM backer (6'3+, long arms). Galette, Hawthorne, Lofton, Wilson. I can almost guarantee that. Vilma will probably end up being a nickel linebacker replacing Lofton or Hawthorne. I agree about the d-line, I think we have the talent to be good 2-gappers, but star 1-gappers. Jordan and Hicks will dominate in the 5-tech. Just my 0.02

 

[whosyadaddy]

I can guarantee you that Hawhorne won't be playing the strong side OLB. Hawthorne and Lofton will man the middle. Hawthorne is in no way, shape, or form a 4-3 over/under SAM. I don't know for certain who will play SOLB, but I bet it's Tez. You can say a backer is a backer is a backer but certain guys are better suited to play certain positions. When we drafted Tez my immediate thought was finally a legit SAM backer (6'3+, long arms). Galette, Hawthorne, Lofton, Wilson. I can almost guarantee that. Vilma will probably end up being a nickel linebacker replacing Lofton or Hawthorne. I agree about the d-line, I think we have the talent to be good 2-gappers, but star 1-gappers. Jordan and Hicks will dominate in the 5-tech. Just my 0.02

Man I am with you on this I want Hawthorne in the middle next to Lofton, however listening to Payton on the radio today it sure sounded like it will be Vilma's job to lose (in the middle next to Lofton). Definitely didn't sound like Vilma's role would be limited as you were saying about the nickle lb role. Will be interesting to see how in cement what he said actually is and will be once training camp and preseason concludes. I personally think Hawthorne is better suited to be the middle backer and will suffer less from lineman getting him blocked out the play than Vilma would. Definitely will have us tuned in watching how the starting LB core makes itself known going into the regular season.

 

[saintly179]

If they intend to keep Vilma around, then they will give Hawthorne a shot at SOLB or they will either release or try to trade him to get Wilson on the field more. I personally see him as a SILB but Im no coach. I hope we draft either Jordan or Ogletree. As far as the DL, I think we're bout set but I think we should re-sign Aubrayo Franklin. I'd rather not trust a rookie to rotate at NT. Also they should prolly gohead n release Smith. Secondary is the hardest to project but there will b changes for sure. I also think Jenkins can beat out Robinson. In that case I'd like to see IAQ starting at FS

 

[DAT_Chalmation23]

Awesome write-up Dan! I'm most worried about the secondary next season. I completely agree with your observation on P. Rob. Man has the skillset to be a very good corner but, just gets lost at times and loses focus. Greer has def. played better days but rlly suffered from the non-existent pass rush. In fact, the whole secondary suffered but they did show a few bright spots. As far as Harper, he will be asked to help/drop into coverage from time to time and he just isn't that type of safety. Listen, I understand the difference in FS and SS but they both need to assist the corners but he is not that guy. I think/hope we draft CB or OLB in 1st rd.Again, awesome observation Dan!

 

[guillermo]

Thanks Dan, as always after reading you I know that I learned a thing or two.

I understand the similarities between the Williams' and the Ryan system, and though that may help ease the transition, it keeps me with the same worry, a worry that was accentuated last year.

We gave over 400 per game last year, and if we would have been able to stop a couple of big plays, that number would have been reduced significantly. What is more worrisome is that this plays come from the pass (as in the Dallas game) or the run (as in the Carolina game). We were constantly burned by runs off-tackle and by plays where lack of coordination between our secondary was evident.

For that reason I think that the biggest need we have right now is a kind of center fielder that has also the leadership to put the secondary house in order, play by play. I am not sure if we have this guy around.

I would love to know about the players evaluations, as of now I think both Jenkins and Harper have a place in the new defense, but most in these substitute packages, Jenkins as a slot cover man and Harper even as a cover linebacker in nickle-dime sub-packages.

On another matter, I have been a proponent of going younger. This is the perfect time to do so. I understand that we have a window and that Coach Payton has no intention to blow the thing out. I think this has to be linked to the draft. A construction of a new defense will take 2-3 years, and we may be prepared to have the depth chart to be ready to take the hard decisions of saying goodbye to veterans, and expensive contracts.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I'm curious to know why you have Hawthorne starting@ SOLB. Most of the talk to wanting to change to a 3-4 was to get Martez and Galette on the field consistently instead of relegating them to pass rushing situations(which we had the hardest time getting into) because they are tweeners.

Moving Hawthorne to SOLB basically pushes Martez into a 3rd down role again....Which i don't see happening.

Obviously you know more than me about the prospect of what positions guys fit but ive read that the SOLB in the 3-4 basically does what a two gapping SOLB in the 4-3 does. IS responsible for setting the edge, coverage, then blitzing.

Hawthorne already complained about how he wasn't brought here to play SOLB in a 4-3. I find it hard to believe that they'll move him to SOLB in a 3-4 and ask him to do the same thing on 2downs. He would also be a very expensive two down player as his salary will be about 4mil this year...with a chance to restructure i assume.

All the traits of the SOLB i think Martez Wilson holds and should be able to do for 3 downs and not just 2.

 

[CantonLegend]

If will smith is retained, he will start over hicks..that's really my only critique

Our defensive players are actually pretty solid

The only personnel issue that we really need to take into consideration is our lack of a true nose tackle

We may be able to get by with galette and Wilson or someone else on the edge but a true rush LB is something this team doesn't have either

Our secondary is fine but we could use another corner and our biggest problem will be staying healthy

If our team stays healthy then we will win a lot of games

 

[meily]

I can guarantee you that Hawhorne won't be playing the strong side OLB. Hawthorne and Lofton will man the middle. Hawthorne is in no way, shape, or form a 4-3 over/under SAM. I don't know for certain who will play SOLB, but I bet it's Tez. You can say a backer is a backer is a backer but certain guys are better suited to play certain positions. When we drafted Tez my immediate thought was finally a legit SAM backer (6'3+, long arms). Galette, Hawthorne, Lofton, Wilson. I can almost guarantee that. Vilma will probably end up being a nickel linebacker replacing Lofton or Hawthorne. I agree about the d-line, I think we have the talent to be good 2-gappers, but star 1-gappers. Jordan and Hicks will dominate in the 5-tech. Just my 0.02

This is my thoughts, I just dont see Hawthorne as an outside backer, I didnt think he was a good fit at WILL or SAM in the 4-3..he looked like a MLB playing outside linebacker last year. I think Vilma will be in on sub packages (passing downs) replacing Hawthorne next to Lofton and Galette will be the rush linebacker and Wilson will play the SAM outside linebacker spot. The Saints will most likely also draft or sign players who also fit those outside positions but as far as current players I think those are the two guys to likely man those spots.

 

[TCUDan]

TCU...

You said the secondary will stay the same? What I see is MJ plays better closed to the line and Abdul-Quddus is the most instinctive Safety on the team. Please tell me you can see Quddus at FS and Jenk playing SS as starters next year???

I think it's difficult logic to peg Jenkins at SS since he missed so many tackles. Now it's a different angle if you're an in the box safety, but I don't think that's his strength. I would move Jenkins to CB before I moved him to SS.

I like IAQ as a SS big time! But he can also play FS and play it well. I don't think he's a clear-cut starter... he may still be a nickel safety.

I'd love to see us bring in a safety, even an older guy like Ed Reed, a lot like when we brought in Sharper. He would give us a very, very good center-fielder for 2-3 years, but that may not be possible.

There's competition. I don't know what the coaches would do. If it were me, I'd probably slide Jenkins to CB, put IAQ at FS and keep Harper at SS. But that's just me.

Great read and analysis Dan. Thanks. Care to comment, guess on the future of Greg Romeus?

No clue. He was such a talented college player. But we've seen this script before. If he can come back from his injury and regain the form he had in college, that will be a pleasant surprise. In short, Romeus does not factor into my thinking.

I'm curious to know why you have Hawthorne starting@ SOLB. Most of the talk to wanting to change to a 3-4 was to get Martez and Galette on the field consistently instead of relegating them to pass rushing situations(which we had the hardest time getting into) because they are tweeners.

Moving Hawthorne to SOLB basically pushes Martez into a 3rd down role again....Which i don't see happening.

Obviously you know more than me about the prospect of what positions guys fit but ive read that the SOLB in the 3-4 basically does what a two gapping SOLB in the 4-3 does. IS responsible for setting the edge, coverage, then blitzing.

Hawthorne already complained about how he wasn't brought here to play SOLB in a 4-3. I find it hard to believe that they'll move him to SOLB in a 3-4 and ask him to do the same thing on 2downs. He would also be a very expensive two down player as his salary will be about 4mil this year...with a chance to restructure i assume.

All the traits of the SOLB i think Martez Wilson holds and should be able to do for 3 downs and not just 2.

All good points. I don't think Vilma is going to be a nickel player though. I think the Saints will even sacrifice a little bit as far as "stoutness" to have Vilma out there, play in/play out, directing traffic and keeping everybody on the same page.

Hawthorne and Wilson will compete. Hawthorne may also compete to play inside. You'll aso them all on the field, as RR will undoubtedly use two down linemen and 5 LBs from time to time. But if you're talking starters, that Rush LB is really the only position that differs from a 4-3 at the LB level. That WILB is still your WILL. That SILB is still your Mike. And that SOLB is still your SAM. Hawthorne may not be a prototype, but that's where he slates in.

It all comes down to getting your best players on the field. The Saints will get the best, most reliable 4 on the field. And no matter how dynamic Wilson is, if he can't play down-in/down-out assignment football, he won't be an every down player.

That said I would love for him to be that guy... like I said, he's a physical stud.