what would happen if we pegged rent? (1 Viewer)

guidomerkinsrules

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so rule of thumb seems to be that rent should be 25% of gross salary

what would happen if we pegged that? made it so that rent was "controlled" at 25%? (the % isn't important, but more the idea of 'fixing' it)

i think i can anticipate some of the "why nots" but I'm interested to hear the arguments pro/con
 

insidejob

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Agreed.

I think the more modern approach is to use vouchers instead of direct support of the housing itself. So a typical Section 8 household would get a voucher to use anywhere (and the family could supplement the voucher to pay higher rent if desired).
This is pretty much what they did with the projects that have been rebuilt in New Orleans. Turned them into "mixed income housing" with a percentage of the units available to section 8 tenants and the rest of the units aren't able to accept subsidies.

That was the plan at the start, though I don't know if it actually worked out that way. I also don't know if it was for ALL of the projects or just some of them.

The Blue Plate building was designed to accept Section 8 vouchers for something like half of the units and the same applied to the American Can Company building. Both buildings have long waiting lists to get a place so it must be working somewhat.

I can say that I wouldn't want to move into any of these new "mixed income developments" (that replaced the old projects like the Melp and Calliope) because I just don't think that someone who isn't as invested in their property as I am will be as willing to take care of it since it's costing them very little. The new projects sure look nice though. They seem to be well maintained thus far, and I also wonder how that works. Does HANO still take care of all the upkeep since it's no longer all government subsidized housing? Do they only cut the grass for the units who are subsidized, leaving those who aren't to cut their own grass?
 

FullMonte

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so rule of thumb seems to be that rent should be 25% of gross salary

what would happen if we pegged that? made it so that rent was "controlled" at 25%? (the % isn't important, but more the idea of 'fixing' it)
Well, the first question before the discussion can proceed in a positive direction is...

What do you mean by that? Are you saying that if I want to rent a house, the landlord is not allowed to charge me more than 25% of my gross income? Or are you saying that if I want to rent a house that is 30% of my gross income, the landlord is not allowed to rent it to me?

Because I think those two things bring up completely different viewpoints
 

superchuck500

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I can say that I wouldn't want to move into any of these new "mixed income developments" (that replaced the old projects like the Melp and Calliope) because I just don't think that someone who isn't as invested in their property as I am will be as willing to take care of it since it's costing them very little.
I understand your rationale but this might be an example where we need to be careful about being objective. I think it's probably more complicated than simply how much "skin in the game" the renter has. I think part of the rationale for vouchers is that when the subsidized renters are inter-dispersed with paying community, they might have more pride in their residence even if much or all of the rent is a government allowance. Also, there may be greater social pressure when your neighbors are vested and keeping up their own property.

I don't know if our social studies have answered the question of whether projects were dirty and crime-ridden because their occupants weren't paying for the space or were the occupants not sprucing them up because they were dirty crime-ridden projects.
 

insidejob

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I understand your rationale but this might be an example where we need to be careful about being objective. I think it's probably more complicated than simply how much "skin in the game" the renter has. I think part of the rationale for vouchers is that when the subsidized renters are inter-dispersed with paying community, they might have more pride in their residence even if much or all of the rent is a government allowance. Also, there may be greater social pressure when your neighbors are vested and keeping up their own property.

I don't know if our social studies have answered the question of whether projects were dirty and crime-ridden because their occupants weren't paying for the space or were the occupants not sprucing them up because they were dirty crime-ridden projects.
You're right. And I suppose my issue with it is that it seems like the system gets played so easily in New Orleans for Section 8 housing that I don't buy that a lot of the people receiving vouchers really need them. Hell, Big Freedia received Section 8 vouchers for years after he'd become a celebrity and had been given a key to the city by Landrieu. He was charged in court and had to pay back three years worth the vouchers he'd received illegally.

If the people receiving the vouchers really need them and are paying the same percentage of their income as the non-vouchered residents, then I can see where the same pride would be taken in their housing.

The fact that the new projects are still looking good years after they were built is promising, lending credence to that the projects were dirty, crime-ridden hellholes because that's what the residents moved into in the first place and not because they didn't care about their property.
 
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guidomerkinsrules

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You're right. And I suppose my issue with it is that it seems like the system gets played so easily in New Orleans for Section 8 housing that I don't buy that a lot of the people receiving vouchers really need them. Hell, Big Freedia received Section 8 vouchers for years after he'd become a celebrity and had been given a key to the city by Landrieu. He was charged in court and had to pay back three years worth the vouchers he'd received illegally.

If the people receiving the vouchers really need them and are paying the same percentage of their income as the non-vouchered residents, then I can see where the same pride would be taken in their housing.
just noting that you jumped from a person to "the people" without much to back it up

The fact that the new projects are still looking good years after they were built is promising, lending credence to that the projects were dirty, crime-ridden hellholes because that's what the residents moved into in the first place and not because they didn't care about their property.
most of the original projects were built as post-war (transitional) housing
they were built as "inclusive" communities - meaning that the flow of the design was to draw you in towards your neighbors
BUT
once the interstates went up and the demographics shifted, only lower earning families remained in them - so that inward design was then used to keep residents inside
police essentially let whatever happen inside and just concerned themselves with making sure the "whatever" didn't spill outside

i have concern (though it isn't really what the thread is about) that we are about to swing back in that direction - we already have the black flight to the East and the white flight to St Bernard/Arabi starting again
we already have the movie industry slowly trickling away - if medicine and tech follow, we'll be back to the 70s
 

insidejob

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just noting that you jumped from a person to "the people" without much to back it up







most of the original projects were built as post-war (transitional) housing

they were built as "inclusive" communities - meaning that the flow of the design was to draw you in towards your neighbors

BUT

once the interstates went up and the demographics shifted, only lower earning families remained in them - so that inward design was then used to keep residents inside

police essentially let whatever happen inside and just concerned themselves with making sure the "whatever" didn't spill outside



i have concern (though it isn't really what the thread is about) that we are about to swing back in that direction - we already have the black flight to the East and the white flight to St Bernard/Arabi starting again

we already have the movie industry slowly trickling away - if medicine and tech follow, we'll be back to the 70s


I made the jump from a person to the people because if a celebrity who's been given a key to the city by the mayor can slip through the cracks and receive section 8 vouchers for 3 years, I feel somewhat confident that it's happening on a pretty large basis with people who are not celebrities.
 
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guidomerkinsrules

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I understand your rationale but this might be an example where we need to be careful about being objective. I think it's probably more complicated than simply how much "skin in the game" the renter has. I think part of the rationale for vouchers is that when the subsidized renters are inter-dispersed with paying community, they might have more pride in their residence even if much or all of the rent is a government allowance. Also, there may be greater social pressure when your neighbors are vested and keeping up their own property.

I don't know if our social studies have answered the question of whether projects were dirty and crime-ridden because their occupants weren't paying for the space or were the occupants not sprucing them up because they were dirty crime-ridden projects.
we live in the units that used to be in the old St Bernard - we pay market price, but many pay different sliding scale prices
the places stay nice for 2 reasons:
- maintenance is ALL OVER the buildings and appearance is clearly concern 1 (it will take a few days to fix a fritzy water heater, but new paint will go up next day)
- all adults work (it's part of the lease). by 9am the parking lot is empty and usually doesn't fill back up until 8pm - so there is no hanging and and the petty stuff that happens through boredom that escalates
all income brackets carry their weight (it's really not much different than most gated communities i've been in)

HOWEVER, it seems pretty clear that this place was part of a long term bait-n-switch. The company needed to take in anyone that had been in the old pjs
after that they needed to keep a % of "affordable" units
but that was for 5 years
it seems pretty clear now that they trying to have all units at market rate
 
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guidomerkinsrules

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I made the jump from a person to the people because if a celebrity who's been given a key to the city by the mayor can slip through the cracks and receive section 8 vouchers for 3 years, I feel somewhat confident that it's happening on a pretty large basis with people who are not celebrities.
but you admit that it's pure speculation on your part?
 

insidejob

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but you admit that it's pure speculation on your part?


Absolutely. I think the majority of people using vouchers need them but also believe that it's been shown that the incompetence of New Orleans social services programs is pretty obvious and has been for a long time now.
 
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Absolutely. I think the majority of people using vouchers need them but also believe that it's been shown that the incompetence of New Orleans social services programs is pretty obvious and has been for a long time now.
i can say for certain the state's are
 

The Mongoose

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HOWEVER, it seems pretty clear that this place was part of a long term bait-n-switch. The company needed to take in anyone that had been in the old pjs
after that they needed to keep a % of "affordable" units
but that was for 5 years
it seems pretty clear now that they trying to have all units at market rate
Don't quote me on this, but I think the way the tax credits work is that you have to maintain the subsidized rents for five years or else you have to pay back the credit.

It's not really a bait and switch. I don't think developers go into that deal expecting to be at market rents in 5 years. But if the market allows it, they're just responding the the incentives that have been put in front of them.

Likewise, in your pegging fantasy, you'd see a bunch of people responding to incentives that wouldn't create the utopia you're seeking to create. I could see no new construction, extreme competition for existing units, and higher rents than those that currently exist.

Housing and rents react pretty cleanly to supply and demand.
 

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Don't quote me on this, but I think the way the tax credits work is that you have to maintain the subsidized rents for five years or else you have to pay back the credit.

It's not really a bait and switch. I don't think developers go into that deal expecting to be at market rents in 5 years. But if the market allows it, they're just responding the the incentives that have been put in front of them.

Likewise, in your pegging fantasy, you'd see a bunch of people responding to incentives that wouldn't create the utopia you're seeking to create. I could see no new construction, extreme competition for existing units, and higher rents than those that currently exist.

Housing and rents react pretty cleanly to supply and demand.
My wife is somewhat involved in tax credit properties and it's a fairly normal way to help finance a new property.
 
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Likewise, in your pegging fantasy, you'd see a bunch of people responding to incentives that wouldn't create the utopia you're seeking to create. I could see no new construction, extreme competition for existing units, and higher rents than those that currently exist.

Housing and rents react pretty cleanly to supply and demand.
i figured construction would be one of the main things mentioned
the question i have is that construction seems to oversupply a hot market contributing to the inevitable crash
in my "fantasy" construction would be based actual need and not tax benefits that city/town councils dole out

the fantasy for me is that neighborhoods have some sort of balance of pegged rents (5 houses at $1000, 5 @ $15Km 5 @ $2k, etc)
schools, grocery stores, and other "amenities" would have equal incentive to develop in any neighborhood

the OP was also wondering if this would have a net benefit to the local economy - fewer $ spent on rent/mortgage, more $ spent other places??
 

The Mongoose

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You're still introducing unnatural restrictions that will have deleterious effects, or at least unexpected consequences that are unpredictable.
 

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