What Would Jim Finks Do to Turnaround the Saints? (1 Viewer)

Swimmer

Medsamust Saint Fan
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
16,621
Reaction score
23,838
Age
67
Location
Slaughterhouse Five
Offline
We were a foot away from this board being ecstatic and talking about all the great moves in the turnaround - at least for a week. But this loss did finally release some posters who know NFL pretty good to post some tough insights. EJW's historical analysis of bad moves by the FO over the past 4 years should become the standard for Saints FO effectiveness reference.

Jim Finks was the best NFL and CFL franchise turnaround specialist in history: Bears, Vikes, Saints and I think Stampeders (Guillermo?). So what was his strategy

1) He rarely made dramatic moves the 1st year, preferring to get to know 1st hand what the real franchise problems were. With the Saints, he hired Mora 1st year, but he had Mora hand-picked from the UFL whenever Finks made his next move.
2) We wouldn't be in cap hell. I suspect the Pats learned some from Finks. Finks was often described as being cheap by his peers. But he definitely believed in "selling high and buying low." He let a number of our star LBs go instead of paying the inflated open market value
3) He built his FO with professional, expereinced NFL executives. He gave his coaches say in all matters, but the GM ran the team.
4) He built strong defenses as fast as possible believing championships were won with defense and great defenses made-up for a lot of mistakes of the offense. He built depth in the front 7 of his defenses over time. On offense he wanted ball control running game and No turnovers.
5) He never reached for the 1 or 2 great FAs who might help the team turnaround overnight. He simply wasn't going to pay a premium.

These are just a few of his fundamental tenets for building winning organizations of Finks. So I'll take a stab at some of his analysis of the current Saints. Here's some of my hunches:

- After analyzing the team, he would realize the team had no professional FO and the team was being run by the head coach
- He would realize the team had one of the great offensive minds as head coach. However, he would also realize that this head coach had something systemically wrong in his defensive strategy and defensive player acquisition pipelines
- He would likely realize the head coach poorly hired defensive coaches and hung-on to them under performing way too long
- He would realize we had one of the great Leaders and QBs of all-time in Brees, but that his best days were numbered.
- He would cringe at what he would consider expensive, reckless, spontaneous near desperation FA moves. To him, this would be a base fundamental problem that had to be changed. Paying 20%-25% of Talent Budget on players who no longer play for the team would be insanity to him. That means there was no room for error in drafts and FAs as well as not enough money for talent depth on defense and the O-line.

Please disagree or add to any of the points above.

But mostly I am asking the board members to express the specific moves they think Finks would do to turnaround this team. Go for it. Most of us are in "emotional" mode since that Dagger to Heart Loss Sunday. Hopefully, by trying to look through Finks eyes, we may collectively start to be able to think about moves from a Big Picture, Long-Term success view. Or what would Bellicheck do?
 

insidejob

Respect existence or expect resistance.
Approved Blogger
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Messages
32,130
Reaction score
53,403
Location
Back in 70124
Offline
He would cringe at what he would consider expensive, reckless, spontaneous near desperation FA moves. To him, this would be a base fundamental problem that had to be changed. Paying 20%-25% of Talent Budget on players who no longer play for the team would be insanity to him. That means there was no room for error in drafts and FAs as well as not enough money for talent depth on defense and the O-line.
He would have made the same moves himself at the time they were made. This rewriting of history like signing Spiller, Byrd, Browner, etc. wasn't celebrated by 95% of fans and talking heads around the league at the time they were made is ridiculous.

Reckless, spontaneous, near-desperation is not how those moves were made.
 

Complex Kid

Most things I worry about Never happen anyway
Joined
Nov 14, 2002
Messages
11,771
Reaction score
18,426
Age
41
Location
Lake Charles, LA
Offline
He'd decide Drew Brees is too expensive and tell him to sit out if he liked then trade a couple of 1st rounders for Dallas's backup QB. Then Drew Brees would go to Atlanta and throw a game winning TD against the Saints in the dome and act like an airplane.

You know. The usual.
 

crosswatt

Gone Fishing.
Staff member
Administrator
VIP Contributor
Joined
Jul 10, 2001
Messages
32,282
Reaction score
46,065
Location
Chesapeake, VA
Offline
It would certainly be an interesting exercise to see how an old school GM like Finks would've adapted to this new era of football. Or how a Payton would've coexisted with a personality like Finks, or conversely how Mora would've been able to deal with Loomis' cap gymnastics...
 

blackadder

...from a chicken, bugwit
VIP Contributor
Joined
Nov 8, 2003
Messages
29,057
Reaction score
21,054
Offline
He'd decide Drew Brees is too expensive and tell him to sit out if he liked then trade a couple of 1st rounders for Dallas's backup QB. Then Drew Brees would go to Atlanta and throw a game winning TD against the Saints in the dome and act like an airplane.

You know. The usual.
Finks didn't account for the passionate anger of a Cajun scorned.

I waited and waited for Hebert to make an impact play like that in a crooshal situation with the Saints and he only ever choked. Of course he did it for the Falcons.

Still, he didn't set the world on fire for Atlanta. He was competent. We always needed better at QB.
 

blackadder

...from a chicken, bugwit
VIP Contributor
Joined
Nov 8, 2003
Messages
29,057
Reaction score
21,054
Offline
We were a foot away from this board being ecstatic and talking about all the great moves in the turnaround - at least for a week. But this loss did finally release some posters who know NFL pretty good to post some tough insights. EJW's historical analysis of bad moves by the FO over the past 4 years should become the standard for Saints FO effectiveness reference.

Jim Finks was the best NFL and CFL franchise turnaround specialist in history: Bears, Vikes, Saints and I think Stampeders (Guillermo?). So what was his strategy

1) He rarely made dramatic moves the 1st year, preferring to get to know 1st hand what the real franchise problems were. With the Saints, he hired Mora 1st year, but he had Mora hand-picked from the UFL whenever Finks made his next move.
2) We wouldn't be in cap hell. I suspect the Pats learned some from Finks. Finks was often described as being cheap by his peers. But he definitely believed in "selling high and buying low." He let a number of our star LBs go instead of paying the inflated open market value
3) He built his FO with professional, expereinced NFL executives. He gave his coaches say in all matters, but the GM ran the team.
4) He built strong defenses as fast as possible believing championships were won with defense and great defenses made-up for a lot of mistakes of the offense. He built depth in the front 7 of his defenses over time. On offense he wanted ball control running game and No turnovers.
5) He never reached for the 1 or 2 great FAs who might help the team turnaround overnight. He simply wasn't going to pay a premium.

These are just a few of his fundamental tenets for building winning organizations of Finks. So I'll take a stab at some of his analysis of the current Saints. Here's some of my hunches:

- After analyzing the team, he would realize the team had no professional FO and the team was being run by the head coach
- He would realize the team had one of the great offensive minds as head coach. However, he would also realize that this head coach had something systemically wrong in his defensive strategy and defensive player acquisition pipelines
- He would likely realize the head coach poorly hired defensive coaches and hung-on to them under performing way too long
- He would realize we had one of the great Leaders and QBs of all-time in Brees, but that his best days were numbered.
- He would cringe at what he would consider expensive, reckless, spontaneous near desperation FA moves. To him, this would be a base fundamental problem that had to be changed. Paying 20%-25% of Talent Budget on players who no longer play for the team would be insanity to him. That means there was no room for error in drafts and FAs as well as not enough money for talent depth on defense and the O-line.

Please disagree or add to any of the points above.

But mostly I am asking the board members to express the specific moves they think Finks would do to turnaround this team. Go for it. Most of us are in "emotional" mode since that Dagger to Heart Loss Sunday. Hopefully, by trying to look through Finks eyes, we may collectively start to be able to think about moves from a Big Picture, Long-Term success view. Or what would Bellicheck do?
I think coming in and taking stock he would talk to Payton and get input but he would end up saying "I'm hiring someone I trust to rebuild the defense from bottom up, and I've got final say on personnel decisions. I will hear your viewpoint on needs but you're going to work and cooperate with the new DC and accept my decisions, right?"
 
OP

Swimmer

Medsamust Saint Fan
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
16,621
Reaction score
23,838
Age
67
Location
Slaughterhouse Five
Offline
He would have made the same moves himself at the time they were made. This rewriting of history like signing Spiller, Byrd, Browner, etc. wasn't celebrated by 95% of fans and talking heads around the league at the time they were made is ridiculous.
I can't read tee leaves, but those moves would have been way out of character for Finks. Finks style would be more like picking up Roberson (LB).
 
OP

Swimmer

Medsamust Saint Fan
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
16,621
Reaction score
23,838
Age
67
Location
Slaughterhouse Five
Offline
The game has changed so much with real free agency....it's hard for me to imagine how he would operate in it.
Good point Lurker. But from reading his book, I think it's pretty clear how he would have handled today's FA, "Sell High, Buy Low." The Pats FO adopted this strategy. In this sense, he viewed it as a business. I will use the word of one of the posters yesterday. He viewed Talent as "assets." What did he have to pay for the performance received from the player. By implementing this Sell High-Buy Low attitude, overtime, he was paying less for player productivity than most other teams which gave him freedom to build depth.
 

Goatman Saint

Subscribing Member
Platinum VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 18, 1999
Messages
22,040
Reaction score
19,636
Age
49
Location
Between here and there
Offline
Let's not kid ourselves though. Wilkes, Warren, Jackson, other keys were here before he came. No one thought Mills was worth anything, Johnson was a leftover and Swilling was a lucky pick, nothing more. The only pick that Finks made on the defense that was
Worth anything was Martin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

rsmith2783

Specialist
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
7,103
Reaction score
5,565
Offline
Our best GM since Finks was Mueller.
I know there's still some rumors today about why he was fired, and i'm sure that reason overshadowed his accomplishments here; but if he was still the GM, the Saints would have been much more competitive during the Haslett years.

I give Loomis credit for finding Payton. Most fans didn't know who he was prior to him becoming the head coach.

Loomis has received credit for making it happen and squeezing the life out of the salary cap to get players. However, he is not a good personnel guy.

If Payton were to quit today, the franchise would be in a mess, and Loomis is not the right guy to turn it around.
 

Moon

Pro-Bowler
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
1,437
Reaction score
3,398
Online
Yeah, he'd come in with his fundamentals and hire great assistant coaches like Carl Smith. Any objections from Payton would be met with: "Hey, pal, you need to listen to me--------I almost won a playoff game here.."
 
OP

Swimmer

Medsamust Saint Fan
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
16,621
Reaction score
23,838
Age
67
Location
Slaughterhouse Five
Offline
It would certainly be an interesting exercise to see how an old school GM like Finks would've adapted to this new era of football. Or how a Payton would've coexisted with a personality like Finks, or conversely how Mora would've been able to deal with Loomis' cap gymnastics...
Watt - Really good point. As far as Old School, is Finks philosophy much different from: Carolina, Ravens, Denver, Vikings, Cincy, Texans, Chiefs and Seahawks and possibly Pats? These teams, exclude Texans for now, are pretty much perennial playoff contenders.

To me, the comment about how SP and Finks would have co-existed is a powerful and interesting insight. thx
 
OP

Swimmer

Medsamust Saint Fan
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
16,621
Reaction score
23,838
Age
67
Location
Slaughterhouse Five
Offline
He'd play hard ball with Drew Brees and Brees would go to the Falcons.
Let's pretend he may have traded Brees to another team, but then again, a top 3 HOF QB still playing lights out on basically a 1-year extension, which all props go to Loomis on that contract, may have been an option to keep Drew. Then again, Sell High-Buy Low.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Dan in Lafayette Sean Payton Talks Offensive Strategy, Week 2 prep | Saints at Raiders Week 2 2020 SR News Page Articles 0
Dan in Lafayette Emmanuel Sanders on Saints Wide Receivers, Week 2 gameplan | Saints at Raiders Week 2 2020 SR News Page Articles 0
Dan in Lafayette Terron Armstead on Saints D-line, Week 2 prep | Saints at Raiders Week 2 2020 SR News Page Articles 0
Dan in Lafayette C.J. Gardner-Johnson on Raiders Offense, Saints Run Defense | Saints at Raiders Week 2 2020 SR News Page Articles 0
New Orleans Saints 9/19/20 Injury Report (Michael Thomas officially ruled out) Saints Super Forum (Main Board) 6
Saints Fans are taking over the Vegas Strip Saints Super Forum (Main Board) 6
How the Saints are handling road games in 2020: 'Buyouts' of most hotels, more buses than usual Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints sign college teammates Anthony Zettel, Grant Haley to the practice squad Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Andrus Saints vs. Raiders: Matchups to Watch SR News Page Articles 0
Andrus Saints practice squad adds two free agents after tryouts SR News Page Articles 0
Andrus Saints Saturday Injury Report: 2020 Week 2 at Las Vegas Raiders SR News Page Articles 0
Saints' Thomas (ankle) ruled out vs. Raiders Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints rookie LB Zack Baun expected to make NFL debut against the Raiders Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints fans 'Ask Amie:' Answers about Michael Thomas, the secondary, practice squad call-ups Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Thomas, Davenport, Hansen ruled out for Saints at Las Vegas Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints at Raiders final injury report: Cesar Ruiz to play Monday; Thomas OUT Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints will be without both Michael Thomas and Marcus Davenport against the Raiders Saints RSS News Feeds 0
DerrickB Podcast: Saints vs. Raiders MNF Preview Saints Super Forum (Main Board) 4
Week 2 rooting guide: Who Saints fans should want to win and who they should be rooting against Saints RSS News Feeds 0
WATCH: Week 2 preview video, Saints and Raiders on Monday Night Football Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Dan in Lafayette Alex Anzalone on Josh Jacobs, Saints Linebackers | Saints at Raiders Week 2 2020 SR News Page Articles 0
Dan in Lafayette Tre'Quan Smith Talks Saints Offense, Week 2 prep | Saints at Raiders 2020 SR News Page Articles 0
Dan in Lafayette Jared Cook on Jon Gruden, Saints Offensive Depth | Saints at Raiders Week 2 2020 SR News Page Articles 0
Dan in Lafayette NFL Week 2: Cesar Ruiz upgraded on Saints-Raiders injury report SR News Page Articles 0
Dan in Lafayette Saints injury report: TE Cook says Michael Thomas will miss Monday’s game SR News Page Articles 0
Dan in Lafayette Column: Don't be afraid, the Saints will still reign SR News Page Articles 0
Mike Tilleman, member of first New Orleans Saints team, dead at age 76 Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints at Raiders Friday injury report: Cesar Ruiz full Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saint Kamara Is this the best combined Saints defense/special teams/kicking units of all time? Saints Super Forum (Main Board) 10
How Jared Cook led NFL in big-play efficiency with Saints; what more targets could show Saints RSS News Feeds 1
Saints' C/G Cesar Ruiz 'feeling a lot better' after ankle injury, still to work at center, guard Saints RSS News Feeds 0
The Edge: Assessing how New Orleans Saints, Las Vegas Raiders stack up for Week 2 Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints injury report: Michael Thomas, Marcus Davenport continue to miss practice Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints rookie Ruiz likely to debut as starter against Raiders Saints RSS News Feeds 0
If crowd was allowed, Saints fans would've dominated at Raiders home opener, forecast shows Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Cincy Saint Film breakdown - Saints defense takes away the middle from Brady and the Bucs Saints Super Forum (Main Board) 0
Drew Brees, Saints a good bet in Las Vegas on Monday night Saints RSS News Feeds 0
No fans in Superdome for Week 3 vs. Packers, but Saints 'hopeful' to have fans for Chargers game Saints RSS News Feeds 0
CSC Podcast: Saints @ Raiders Game Preview Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Payton encouraged by Ruiz progress, Saints run defense Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Kicking game quality is ace in the hole for Saints Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Saints @ Raiders: Key matchups include Marshon Lattimore against the speedy Ruggs Saints RSS News Feeds 0
CSC’s Fantasy Start/Sit: Saints vs. Raiders, what to do with Emmanuel Sanders Saints RSS News Feeds 0
mdharper MNF Raiders at Saints Saints Super Forum (Main Board) 1
Saints social media reactions to Joe Burrow’s Thursday Night Football debut Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Film Study: Saints defense faces tough test in Josh Jacobs Saints RSS News Feeds 0
Andrus Saints activate Washington off COVID reserve; Thomas DNP SR News Page Articles 0
Andrus Saints Thursday Injury Report: 2020 Week 2 at Las Vegas Raiders... Five New Orleans players listed in Thursday's report SR News Page Articles 0
Andrus Saints starting receivers Thomas, Sanders miss practice SR News Page Articles 0
Andrus Saints-Raiders Preview SR News Page Articles 0

Similar threads



Headlines

Top Bottom