What's The Difference? Payton's 1st Year Saints & Haslett's 1st Year Saints? (1 Viewer)

[kfran]

Oh, he probably go it back, but it wasn't money. :_rofl:

Are you insinuating that Duece can be a violent man?

 

[CAVALIER]

This team is playing a much tougher last place schedule than that team did!!!

 

[MamaRoux]

That is an interesting stat, but I don;t think it necessarily means that the 2000 team lacked discipline. As others have said, as HAz's tenure when on it was clear that the team lacked discipline as we got so many stupid procedural penalties, delay of game, defenses completely out of position, etc.
But I'd bet those penalties you are talking about are largely of a different sort - coming from the aggressive style of defense that we played that year. As I said earlier, the 2000 defense just made plays, they were agressive and they went after the ball.

I would take the 2000 defense and an extra 2-3 penalties a game over the 2006 defense.

If I recall correctly, far too many of those penalties were Offensive jumps! Off-sides is really inexcusable over and over again, especially from veteren players which is what we had on the "O"-line back then.
On Defense, I'll take our guys right now! IMHO, these guys we have right now are fired up and focused and play hard. While they don't have the Turn-Overs we'd like to have, and aside from our problems in the Secondary, I'll take our "D"-line and "The Mighty Whities" ( our LB Corps.) over those 2000 guys any day since I know these guys "Bring It" each and every game AND they are Payton's guys which must mean they are quality guys who can play! I mean, how can you possibly NOT enjoy Thomas Hollis' play? How about Brian Young finding his game? Then there are our DE's in Grant and Smith. Nothing to complain about there, IMHO! I've always liked Willie Whitehead and even Lake and Leisle step up to the plate nicely when called on. NO, I prefer these guys to the 2000 Defense. I would even say the secondary, with rookie sensation Harper, is an acceptable squad.

All being said, Payton has a TEAM whereas it appears "has-been's" success was more fortunate than an actaully Coached event.

 

[MamaRoux]

I think this is actually where the similarity lies....because Haslett had a Brees in Blake (jmho) so in 2000 it was very similar. The change happens of course with Blakes injury. You take the contributions of Blake, and the emergence of a lot of no name players at the time, and I think the similarities are striking.

So true and I didn't really think of this point! Good on you for bringing the Pre-brooks history of that 2000 season! We DID have a veteren QB who brought confience and leadership for the first part of that season. I was so impressed with how Jeff Blake brought a quality at QB we hadn't seen for a while, what with all of the Billy-Joes parading through our facility.

There was a good feeling about the Team's future under that leadership and no one knew about "has-been's" qualites beyoond what we had seen up until Blake's injury. No one knew "has-been" would be so connected to brooks that Blake would never go under center for us again, losing his job in a way, NFL history tells us should never happen and that if due to injury.

Having said that though, I feel Payton, no matter who you are, if you're not producing and especially if you're mentally bad for the team, if you aren't a "fit" and able to help this football team, you are a gone pecan! That right there could keep a fellow on his toes and weed out the bad apples rather quickly. That is also something I never had the feeliing "has-been" would do.

 

[MG3n2K5]

1. Defensively -
The 2000 defense was much better. Pro-Bowlers were Mark Fields, La'Roi Glover, Joe Johnson, and Keith Mitchell. Don't forget that the rookie they picked up in the 2nd round Darren Howard had about 9 sacks also. The CB's were weak but we had a smart safety lining them up in the right places and always seemed to know where the ball was going. Ron Zook and Jim Haslett did a good job of covering up their defensive deficiencies by bringing pressure often and the defense took Haslett's aggressive demeanor on the field which with that talent brought many sacks and turnovers. The Haslett/Zook defense also came up with the idea of putting a safety (Chris Oldham at LB to slow the Rams down, and was the first team to be really physical with the greatest show on turf which other teams copied and quickened their demise, we had their receivers scared and I loved it.)

The 2006 defense is not as talented but the players are smart and play their assignments well and for that reason they are the best defense since the 2000 defense. Not saying that they are good, but much better than what was inherited. More recently teams are beginning to pick up our defensive deficiencies (which is simply lack of talent at certain positions, LB, 2nd CB) and exploit it but give the coaches lots of credit for hiding those deficiencies as much as possible.

2. Offensively
The 2006 offense on the other hand is much better. Back in 2000 in the beginning we ran a ball control offense where Jeff Blake did a good job of managing the game. Pro-Bowlers were Willie Roaf and Joe Horn. The main plays was to run Ricky, dump the ball off to Ricky, and the sight audible quick pass to Horn which was always good for a quick 7 or 8 yards with an occasional trick play thrown in. After Blake and Ricky went down it was a more improvisational offense due to the fact that the QB was a 2nd year 4th round pick who joined the team after training camp. Less dump-offs, more passes down field with an excellent line protecting him and a lot of successful scrambles. Aaron Brooks also found a relationship with Willie Jackson that is very similiar to what Drew has found with Marques Colston. Also McCarthy did a good job of mixing in trick plays (ex. flea flicker for a 20 yrd. crossing pattern instead of the expected deep pass)

The 2006 offense has an experienced battle tested QB that understands the offense better than our 2nd year QB did, had Duece & Reggie at RB as opposed to Terry and Gerald that we had at the end of that year, has Marques Colston and old Joe Horn and better 3rd and 4th receivers than the younger Joe Horn and Willie Jackson. The 2006 also with Payton is better able to find and attack the opposing defenses weaknesses (moreso in the passing game than rushing game)

Personality

Both teams were agressive. The 2006 version is more of a controlled agression that fits Payton's personality and the players, the 2000 Saints was more of an uncontrolled aggression that also fit the personality of the Haslett's personality and players at the time.

Similarities

Total revamping and gutting of team (2000 got rid of the untalented Ditka gabrowski players, 2006 got rid of the athletically talented but not football smart or malcontent players). Both teams did a good job of picking up players that fit into the coach's philosophy. Receivers coming from nowhere (Marques Colston in 2006 and Joe Horn in 2000).

Main Difference

Haslett's 2000 team was defense oriented (who knew how that would change so fast), Payton's 2006 team is offense oriented.

 

[St. Pike]

St. Randy,.... LSSpan

Please just go to your corners. Your debate is spinning in circles,... and I am getting dizzy,....oh wait, I hope thats the case,....don't want malaria!

 

[St. Pike]

OK,

Its difficult to tell what exactly is going to happen after this week, much less next year and the year after that,..

This being said,...

Haslett was successful because he added good players to some corps guys with leadership and ability. I personally think most of Ditka team were worthless no talent players. Free agency and the draft hlpe us out in 2000.

Haslett lost the team when slowly, those key players left one by one. With each passing year, the defense got worse, and the offnse became more and more erratic. I think everything started with the benching of Jeff Blake before the 2001 season. Someone made the comparison to Brees,... wellI think they were dead on target.

Its almost wierd how in 2000 Joe Horn burst onto the scene, like Colston. Seriously, that's about as close the comparison really goes. 2000 & 2006 teams won for different reasons.

I do think that Payton will maintain whathe has started in 2006. Haslet stressed the intangibles, while Payton stresses character, intelligence, and mentally strong in his players. With Haslett, it seems every other play had either a false start, illegal formation or a holding penalty. Its a joy to listen to the games now.

I think Payton will be like Charlie Weiss,... you can see the difference from his method and I am sure that Notre Dame will eventually be #1 again.

 

[kfran]

1. Defensively -
The 2000 defense was much better. Pro-Bowlers were Mark Fields, La'Roi Glover, Joe Johnson, and Keith Mitchell. Don't forget that the rookie they picked up in the 2nd round Darren Howard had about 9 sacks also. The CB's were weak but we had a smart safety lining them up in the right places and always seemed to know where the ball was going. Ron Zook and Jim Haslett did a good job of covering up their defensive deficiencies by bringing pressure often and the defense took Haslett's aggressive demeanor on the field which with that talent brought many sacks and turnovers. The Haslett/Zook defense also came up with the idea of putting a safety (Chris Oldham at LB to slow the Rams down, and was the first team to be really physical with the greatest show on turf which other teams copied and quickened their demise, we had their receivers scared and I loved it.)

The 2006 defense is not as talented but the players are smart and play their assignments well and for that reason they are the best defense since the 2000 defense. Not saying that they are good, but much better than what was inherited. More recently teams are beginning to pick up our defensive deficiencies (which is simply lack of talent at certain positions, LB, 2nd CB) and exploit it but give the coaches lots of credit for hiding those deficiencies as much as possible.

2. Offensively
The 2006 offense on the other hand is much better. Back in 2000 in the beginning we ran a ball control offense where Jeff Blake did a good job of managing the game. Pro-Bowlers were Willie Roaf and Joe Horn. The main plays was to run Ricky, dump the ball off to Ricky, and the sight audible quick pass to Horn which was always good for a quick 7 or 8 yards with an occasional trick play thrown in. After Blake and Ricky went down it was a more improvisational offense due to the fact that the QB was a 2nd year 4th round pick who joined the team after training camp. Less dump-offs, more passes down field with an excellent line protecting him and a lot of successful scrambles. Aaron Brooks also found a relationship with Willie Jackson that is very similiar to what Drew has found with Marques Colston. Also McCarthy did a good job of mixing in trick plays (ex. flea flicker for a 20 yrd. crossing pattern instead of the expected deep pass)

The 2006 offense has an experienced battle tested QB that understands the offense better than our 2nd year QB did, had Duece & Reggie at RB as opposed to Terry and Gerald that we had at the end of that year, has Marques Colston and old Joe Horn and better 3rd and 4th receivers than the younger Joe Horn and Willie Jackson. The 2006 also with Payton is better able to find and attack the opposing defenses weaknesses (moreso in the passing game than rushing game)

Personality

Both teams were agressive. The 2006 version is more of a controlled agression that fits Payton's personality and the players, the 2000 Saints was more of an uncontrolled aggression that also fit the personality of the Haslett's personality and players at the time.

Similarities

Total revamping and gutting of team (2000 got rid of the untalented Ditka gabrowski players, 2006 got rid of the athletically talented but not football smart or malcontent players). Both teams did a good job of picking up players that fit into the coach's philosophy. Receivers coming from nowhere (Marques Colston in 2006 and Joe Horn in 2000).

Main Difference

Haslett's 2000 team was defense oriented (who knew how that would change so fast), Payton's 2006 team is offense oriented.

You've got to work for the Saints, or you're their beat writer. Excellent and accurate details. :bier: :bier: :bier: :bier:​