What's The Difference? Payton's 1st Year Saints & Haslett's 1st Year Saints? (1 Viewer)

This began with the below post



This prompted this reply from me



Then multiple people commented on the above post





So clearly at this point the reasons for Haslett's failure after 2000 (and why one can suppose Payton will succeed where Haslett failed) is part of the discussion. 3 people are talking about it including the thread starter. You even tangentally mention it



You also said Blake was on a "Brees like tangent" which, I guess, if by "like tangent" you mean 82 QB rating to 98 QB rating, 2,000 yards to 3,500, 0 straight 300 yard games to 5 straight.

Then someone else directly addresses my post on the topic of Haslett's success/lack thereof after 2000 and why



So I directly address him



Where we finally arrive at your "confusion"



So, while you may have only been strictly comparing the 2000 to 2006 season we see 4 seperate people involved in a tangental off-shoot discussing why Haslett failed after 2000 but many of us suspect Payton will succeed.

You're welcome to join the discussion if you so choose, now that i've caught you up on everything.

You're so kind.....but in consideration to the people who actually want to debate the actual topic, based on the fact that it is the actual topic, I would like to have the ability to do so. I apologize if I offended. But I do see the validity in the original discussion, and wonder how one can even consider the future of Paytons decisions when they obviously have yet to happen.

While you so diligently took the time to do all of that editing....I am not so near sighted that I can't seee where the topic was derailed. I do have the right to continue on the original topic as I obviously find it very relevent.


BTW calling it "confusion" tells me that perhaps it isn't I who is confused. I was actually trying to reel this thing back in a be a part of a good discussion.
 
Last edited:
You're so kind.....but in consideration to the people who actually want to debate the actual topic, based on the fact that it is the actual topic, I would like to have the ability to do so. I apologize if I offended. But I do see the validity in the original discussion, and wonder how one can even consider the future of Paytons decisions when they obviously have yet to happen.

While you so diligently took the time to do all of that editing....I am not so near sighted that I can't seee where the topic was derailed. I do have the right to continue on the original topic as I obviously find it very relevent.

I never once complained about your discussion of the original topic. The question is why does the slight side-track some of us took so bother you that you mentioned it 3 times with increasing annoyance? If you're not interested, move on to the next post.

One last point

wonder how one can even consider the future of Paytons decisions when they obviously have yet to happen.

Because that's what people like to do. We actively consider the future. I wonder if Colston will be a success next year. Who do you think we will draft? etc.
 
I never once complained about your discussion of the original topic. The question is why does the slight side-track some of us took so bother you that you mentioned it 3 times with increasing annoyance? If you're not interested, move on to the next post.

One last point



Because that's what people like to do. We actively consider the future. I wonder if Colston will be a success next year. Who do you think we will draft? etc.


I think the confusion comes in when you assume my annoyance. It wasn't I who pasted together that monstrosity instead of just replying to a question.
 
I did a little research, and consider this:

After 11 games in 2000, the Saints had committed 86 penalties (the 12th game was the win over St. Louis--where we committed 17 penalties).

After 11 games this year? Just 59 penalties.


Meaning, under Payton, I expect long-term success. Haslett had the talent on the team, he just never instilled the discipline--even during the 2000 season, as evidenced by the number of penalties we committed.

That was a very good team in 2000. We had the best offensive/defensive lines in the NFL, and when you have that, you'll win some games with just about anybody at the skill positions.

Haslett's first year was good for a one-year run.

Payton's first year is setting the team up for a long-term run.
 
I never once complained about your discussion of the original topic.
okay..............


Quote:
Originally Posted by st.randy
LOL......no just you man. A lot of us were actually debating the topic. I think the post 2000 saints are pretty obvious, and can't be compared to Paytons second year yet......jmho.
This began with the below post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfran
After reading all the good answers, and the more I think about it, I beginning to understand that the major difference between Haz's 1st team and Payton's first year team is the following:

When hired, Payton was "ready" to become a head coach in the NFL. Haz simply wasn't... and still isn't.
This prompted this reply from me

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSSpam
Well yes. Payton understands the foundation of his success (leadership, effort, "players") and has intentionally built his team on those principals. Haslett accidentally fell into a team with a lot of that (overachievers like Sammy Knight), didn't grasp why he had success, and then promptly dismissed the reasons for his success and loaded up on guys who
a) didn't care/weren't motivated (Grady Jackson)
b) had great talent but zero football ability/instincts (Tebucky Jones)
c) were toxic (Albert Connell)

Which is why there is every reason to suppose Paytons success will be sustainable while Hasletts was not.
Then multiple people commented on the above post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThibodauxSaint
I agree. The first thing Payton did when he got here was rid the roster of Haslett-type players (Gandy,Sullivan, Stallworth,Brooks) and started bringing in good character guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfran
Love the way you put that so clearly, LSSPam.
So clearly at this point the reasons for Haslett's failure after 2000 (and why one can suppose Payton will succeed where Haslett failed) is part of the discussion. 3 people are talking about it including the thread starter. You even tangentally mention it

Quote:
Originally Posted by st.randy
Actually there was vry very little difference. Jeff Blake was on a Brees like tangent, and had total control of his offense, made smart audibles and kept the team in a position to win games. The defense wasn't great but they were playing well as a unit. The difference between 2000 and now would be that to this point Brees has stayed healthy and Blake did not.

That would be purely looking at the 2000 season vs the 2006 season. And not trying to take advantage of an opportunity to insult Haslett.
You also said Blake was on a "Brees like tangent" which, I guess, if by "like tangent" you mean 82 QB rating to 98 QB rating, 2,000 yards to 3,500, 0 straight 300 yard games to 5 straight.

Then someone else directly addresses my post on the topic of Haslett's success/lack thereof after 2000 and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gore
Problem is that LSSPam isn't right. It was Mueller who brought in problem players like Connell, Grady Jackson or Dale Carter. And it was Mueller who brought in many of these "athletes" who couldn't play. And the fans applauded these moves.
So I directly address him

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSSpam
You're partially correct. Haslett borrowed his personnal philosophy from Mueller. When Mueller was fired, Haslett became the primary influence on the players we acquired, and the pattern continued. Tebucky Jones, Jonathon Sullivan, Sedrick Hodge, etc.

I'm sure a lot of fans applauded those moves. I know I applauded some (Sullivan for instance). Remarkably, that still doesn't make those good moves or justify them.
Where we finally arrive at your "confusion"

Quote:
Originally Posted by st. randy
I think the problem is that when comparing the 2000 to the 2006 seasons, the players you mention are irrelevant.
So, while you may have only been strictly comparing the 2000 to 2006 season we see 4 seperate people involved in a tangental off-shoot discussing why Haslett failed after 2000 but many of us suspect Payton will succeed.

You're welcome to join the discussion if you so choose, now that i've caught you up on everything.


Not sure what to call all of that.
 
Brees adds a lot to the equation. If Haslett had Brees - he would still be here. Neither Haz nor AB were good for each others career.

I think this is actually where the similarity lies....because Haslett had a Brees in Blake (jmho) so in 2000 it was very similar. The change happens of course with Blakes injury. You take the contributions of Blake, and the emergence of a lot of no name players at the time, and I think the similarities are striking.
 
The Saints played a last place schedule in 2000. The only winning team they beat all year was the Rams, as I recall. This year's schedule is much tougher.
 
I did a little research, and consider this:

After 11 games in 2000, the Saints had committed 86 penalties (the 12th game was the win over St. Louis--where we committed 17 penalties).

After 11 games this year? Just 59 penalties.

That's an eye opening stat, saint1702. It usually indicates a team that is well coached versus one that may not be.
 
Let's see how this one ends. If you remember, things began to unravel at the end of Haz' first year and we got kinda lucky with the Division and playoffs. Payton just seems to have his ducks in a row.
 
I think we had an easier schedule in 2000. Also our defense was better. But the main difference is Payton. He has brough credibility, character, great coaching staff and great play calling. Brees was a huge gamble that paid off.
 
I think the difference is attitude. Payton has this team believing they can go all the way, with hard work and a winning attitude. This team has much more confidence in their QB for one thing, and I think Payton recognizes talent when he sees it. Also Payton doesn't play favorites with his players. The best man for the job, gets the job. Players respect that in their coach. They know they will get a fair shot at things, no matter who you are. I think Payton really respects this town and the people in it. It's not just a job to him, it's a passion. I can see it on the sidelines, in the locker room, and in his interviews. This man is passionate about his sport, and I think some of that attitude has rubbed off on his players. Hell, I know it has. Go Saints!
 
Oucccchhh, LSSpam: Albert Connell - That hurt :_rofl: :_rofl: :_rofl: :_rofl:

Wonder if Duece will ever forget him? In fact, wonder if Duece ever got the money back from him that Connell stole out of Duece's wallet... Man, I am glad those days are history!!

Oh, he probably go it back, but it wasn't money. :_rofl:
 
I did a little research, and consider this:

After 11 games in 2000, the Saints had committed 86 penalties (the 12th game was the win over St. Louis--where we committed 17 penalties).

After 11 games this year? Just 59 penalties.


Meaning, under Payton, I expect long-term success. Haslett had the talent on the team, he just never instilled the discipline--even during the 2000 season, as evidenced by the number of penalties we committed.

That is an interesting stat, but I don;t think it necessarily means that the 2000 team lacked discipline. As others have said, as HAz's tenure when on it was clear that the team lacked discipline as we got so many stupid procedural penalties, delay of game, defenses completely out of position, etc.
But I'd bet those penalties you are talking about are largely of a different sort - coming from the aggressive style of defense that we played that year. As I said earlier, the 2000 defense just made plays, they were agressive and they went after the ball.

I would take the 2000 defense and an extra 2-3 penalties a game over the 2006 defense.
 

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