Whats with people talking about drafting a Guard at 10? and other draft musings. (kinda long) (1 Viewer)

[cdogg]

You take the BPA no matter of position, except for QB. You aren't just drafting for next year, you are drafting for the next 5. BPA!

 

[Mudcrutch]

With the 10th pick in the draft, Mike Ditka takes Chris Naole, Guard. Remember this? Picking OL in the top 10 doesn't guarantee you a Faneca or Hutchinson. You could end up with a Robert Gallery.....or Chris Naole.

Every year we hear, Defense wins Championships, yet you people are still looking to bolster the guard play? It's nuts...we just extended Nesbit, Evans is a pro-bowler in my book, we signed Lehr in free agency, and we drafted Allemon and Bushrod. How much more do we need to add? Do you honestly think we will be better next year if we draft a guard in the first round? No.....because we still won't stop people.

You have to go defense, even if there is potential over production. You have to think that whatever defensive player picked at 10 will have to come in and start for the defense, regardless of position. The defense needs athletes, maulers, and head-hunters. Name one guy on our defense that you can describe like that......?

DRC, McKelvin, Rivers, Ellis, Dorsey (in a trade up)--------- Conner, Mayo, Phillips, Talib (in trade downs) Something to spark the defense, because Defense wins Championships!

 

[fish321]

I understand that the O line being strong helps the D because it burns clock when you can run the ball and keeps the D off the field for extended periods of time, but it does us no good to run an 8 minute drive to score and then have the D give up an 80 yd TD pass. Despite what everyone seems to believe if you draft Clady or Albert at 10 he is just as likely to sit the bench his first year as any other player, especially Albert who will be making a transition to a new position if he moves to tackle.

You take the BPA no matter of position, except for QB. You aren't just drafting for next year, you are drafting for the next 5. BPA!

If you are gonna go BPA no matter what because youre worried about the next 5 yrs why are you gonna make an exception for QB? It seems to me that if you are gonna draft the best player on the board even if he may be a backup to a good player QB would make just as much sense if not more than any other position as it is easily the most important position on any team.

 

[mmule]

If we don't go D at #10, I'd like to see us trade for Lito and take OL at 19. we should be able to get a stud.
Albert, Otah, Chris Williams, Gosder, One of them will be there.

Either OL, or Balmer at 19 would be great. then try and get Laws or Cason in the 2nd.

 

[GoldRush26]

I have started to see this come up in threads recently and even on a random mock draft here and there and it makes no sense to me. We have a solid line, they may not be the best run blockers but they are adequate, as well as some young guys that are waiting in the wings. We dont have a glaring need along the Oline and I would be really disappointed if we take any offensive lineman, but especially a guard with our pick. And yes I know Clady is good but we really don't need him either.

Makes no sense to you??? Really? You don't see how picking a first round o-lineman would be a huge boost to the overall welfare of this team? It's been one of the few positions that the Saints historically have had great success with, probably the most success out of all positions picked in the first round. And "we really don't need him"? What I see a lot is people saying that the offense is "good enough". Last I checked we had 0 Pro Bowlers on this team last year. While I don't think they stink, I believe every position outside of QB and FB could stand a upgrade in the first round of the draft.

Our defense is where our problems are, whether its a linebacker, corner, D tackle, or safety if we are gonna stay at 10 we need to draft defense. Even if we have to reach a little for a defensive player when there is a higher rated offensive player on the board we need to do it. We are in dire need of athletic playmakers on defense, without it we are not much better off than we were last year. Vilma is probably the only guy we can count on to improve our defense this year, and even he is coming off an injury that makes him somewhat questionable. Gay might be a small improvement over our current corners but not much, Morgan is not someone we should count on, though if healthy he could be a solid player. We need to add some young talent to that group.

Basically you're saying draft for need instead of BPA. Saying we "need" to draft on a particular side of the ball is really dangerous and not the best way to run the draft in my opinion. I believe they should have (which they do in all likelyhood) several contingencies in place to account for all possible combinations that could possibly happen with the first 9 picks. A good deal of these contingencies should include taking an offensive player. Like someone else said, you shouldn't draft to fix immediate needs all the time. The team also has to draft to mitigate future problems before they arise. This is what winning teams do. They don't simply react to problems. They anticipate them before they happen.

To take it a step further giving up a pick to take a player would also be a mistake. Dont get me wrong I would love to have Dorsey or Ellis on this team but neither guy is gonna save our defense. If one of em falls to 10 great, pull the trigger, get a linebacker or corner with the 2nd and then do whatever you want with the 3rd, otherwise do everything you can to trade back and hope someone falls in love with a player sitting at 10. The Saints desperately need to get at least 2 defensive playmakers in the first 2 rounds, and if we could get 3 we have a chance to be a top 10 D. With an offensive player in the first our O would be the same (top 5 or 6) and our D might be around 25th. Trade up for Dorsey/Ellis and our O is still top 5 or 6 but our D is probably 20ish. Get a defensive playmaker in the beginning of 1 and 2 and you still have no change in your offense but now your defense could be top 15, manage to pull out 3 defensive starters or at least solid contributors and who knows we might end up with a top ten Defense to go along with our top ten offense.

I would respectfully disagree with this portion of your post as well. All positions on the football field are not created equal. Some are more vital than others. Hate to sound repetitive, but I think the Giants proved how profound an affect the D-line can have on the opposing offense. We already have two bookend DEs. Dorsey and Ellis are elite players and have the most value to OUR TEAM because they can possibly upgrade our D-line to a top 5 D-line instantly, even if we add no more defensive starters in the draft.

If the front office has a chance to pull the trigger on a reasonable trade to get one of these guys they would be crazy not to do it. There's no way you're going to convince me that taking DRC, Rivers, McKelvin, or Jenkins would help this team as much as getting Ellis or Dorsey. Furthermore, Dorsey and Ellis have proven themselves to be bona-fide top 10 picks and have cemented their status across the board. DRC/Rivers/McKelvin/Jenkins have not.

I know all of that is contingent on the FO getting the picks right but there are definitely 3 guys in the top 50 picks that could come in and start on our Defense. Say for example you trade back with Philli and get Lito, take Laws, Mayo or Conner at 19 and then a guy like Kenny Phillips with the 2nd. All of those players could start for us along with Vilma at MLB, and Usama possibly as your nickel (or Gay) and suddenly your D is fortified and the Offense doesnt have to score 40 to win a game. Plus if Meachem shows up and Reggie puts it all together you have your new and improved offense as well.

Thats my hope for the way things go and why I dont want us to take any offensive player with the 10th pick. Let the bashing commence

I refuse to drop last season's results at the feet of the defense. The offense was HORRID the first 4 games. Do you remember Drew Brees? I seriously thought he was throwing games because of a gambling problem or something. Do you remember the inept running game? The numerous dropped passes?? People are being fooled by the offensive's final overall ranking because of Drew's performances after that start, but I don't regard this offense as a true top 5 offense. Last season was definitely a TEAM failure. The D was no more responsible for it than tha O in my eyes. Both were too inconsistent, which is why I would never be opposed to selecting BPA, just so long as it's not QB or FB, which it almost certainly wouldn't be. Like I said I think making unilateral changes to the team in the draft is foolish. If you're not getting better in this league you're getting worse. Just because our offense was rated a top 10 offense last season (and they really weren't as good as that in my opinion), that doesn't mean that an unimproved offense will produce the same results.

Payton is an offense minded coach. We all know this. We should all prepare for the very real possibility that he will select an offensive player on the first day. To not realize this is being masochistic, but I guess so is watching these drafts as a Saints fan.

 

[abnrgr]

Mayock has Albert going to New England at #7 in latest mock. Doubt that hapens but it does appear that Albert's stock is climbing. I wouldn't mind taking O-line if we could slide down a few spots and collect another pick.

 

[speckle trout]

Put myself on the Brandon Albert bandwagon. YouTube - Branden Albert

 

[fish321]

Makes no sense to you??? Really? You don't see how picking a first round o-lineman would be a huge boost to the overall welfare of this team? It's been one of the few positions that the Saints historically have had great success with, probably the most success out of all positions picked in the first round. And "we really don't need him"? What I see a lot is people saying that the offense is "good enough". Last I checked we had 0 Pro Bowlers on this team last year. While I don't think they stink, I believe every position outside of QB and FB could stand a upgrade in the first round of the draft.

Lineman aren't always a safe pick, Robert Gallery and Ferguson havent really lived up to expectations yet and were rated very highly, and especially not one who is being drafted to move to a position he has played only twice. Very good guards can be taken later, and with a good bit of success. Albert has really come on lately and that should be a little bit of a concern, at least as much as is given Cromartie for being a post season riser. I understand the need to build an O line but there are going to be guys that grade out nearly as well at greater positions of need. We have been drafting lineman to develop for years, if we are usually pretty good at scouting lineman they should be capable of taking Nesbit and Stinchcombs spots.

The team also has to draft to mitigate future problems before they arise. This is what winning teams do. They don't simply react to problems. They anticipate them before they happen.

Which is what I assume they were doing when they took Strief, Bushrod and Alleman, looking to the future by taking guys that had all the physical abilities but needed some polishing. The issue I have with drafting offense again is that I cant name 5 guys that we are developing for D. In the past 2 drafts we have come up with Young, Harper, and Mitchell that are still on the team. Thats not really a who's who of up and coming talent, Young and Harper might be fine but Mitchell is probably a career special teamer.

I would respectfully disagree with this portion of your post as well. All positions on the football field are not created equal. Some are more vital than others. Hate to sound repetitive, but I think the Giants proved how profound an affect the D-line can have on the opposing offense. We already have two bookend DEs. Dorsey and Ellis are elite players and have the most value to OUR TEAM because they can possibly upgrade our D-line to a top 5 D-line instantly, even if we add no more defensive starters in the draft.

If the front office has a chance to pull the trigger on a reasonable trade to get one of these guys they would be crazy not to do it. There's no way you're going to convince me that taking DRC, Rivers, McKelvin, or Jenkins would help this team as much as getting Ellis or Dorsey. Furthermore, Dorsey and Ellis have proven themselves to be bona-fide top 10 picks and have cemented their status across the board. DRC/Rivers/McKelvin/Jenkins have not.

Not to bring up the S word but none of these guys have proven anything more than Sullivan has, including Dorsey and Ellis, but I would be just fine if we end up with Dorsey. I just don't think we are gonna fix our D with one guy. Im also not sold on the look what the Giants D did theory. They had good linebackers, great ends and corners that could at least get near to the ball. We might have a good linebacking core if Vilma and Morgan are both healthy, we might be ok at corner if MM has no ill effects from surgery and our ends didn't really show that they knew what a QB looked like last year.

I refuse to drop last season's results at the feet of the defense. The offense was HORRID the first 4 games. Do you remember Drew Brees? I seriously thought he was throwing games because of a gambling problem or something. Do you remember the inept running game? The numerous dropped passes?? People are being fooled by the offensive's final overall ranking because of Drew's performances after that start, but I don't regard this offense as a true top 5 offense. Last season was definitely a TEAM failure. The D was no more responsible for it than tha O in my eyes. Both were too inconsistent, which is why I would never be opposed to selecting BPA, just so long as it's not QB or FB, which it almost certainly wouldn't be. Like I said I think making unilateral changes to the team in the draft is foolish. If you're not getting better in this league you're getting worse. Just because our offense was rated a top 10 offense last season (and they really weren't as good as that in my opinion), that doesn't mean that an unimproved offense will produce the same results.

Here I agree with you, the offense does need to get better but I have to believe that was a bad spell for Brees that we won't see again, otherwise maybe we need to start thinking about Flaco. We need to make some picks on O, we really need a tight end and I would love to see us take Keller in rd 2. If we dont have that pick because we traded up then we pretty much have done just what you advised against and drafted to help only one side of the ball and are stagnant on Offense. There is probably gonna be the top rated guard (if you assume Albert as a tackle) at the top of rd 2 that we could take if thats what we need but the top 3 linebackers and the top 4-6 corners will all likely be gone by then.

I would understand why the Saints would do it if they drafted Albert or Clady at 10, I just feel there is a better pick to be made there for our team.

Also you are 100% right about the masochism thing, the saints would probably make a fortune off of leather masks with the Fleur de lis on em

 

[robsmith32]

anytime we face a team with a dominate d-line, we get beaten bad. because when brees doesn't have time to throw, he throws picks or fumbles it. He's amazing, but he still needs a little time to work. the o-line isn't nearly as good as the sack allowed stat alludes to. brees was under an immense amount of pressure.
fwiw, a healthy morgan is a lot better than ok.. it's just farely limited that he's ever healthy. 25 tackles in a superbowl isnt' just ok.. that's rising to the occassion.
it would take 3-4 games for last 2 years LB to get that many.

 

[CCL36]

I have to disaggree with your take on drafting one of the top 2 DTs because to give up a pick to get Ellis or Dorsey (most likely Ellis) IMO would be the smartest move come draft day. Both of Ellis and Dorsey are going to be studs and will totally change the effectiveness of our DL which will benefit the back 7. Furthermore as been discussed ad nauseum interior DL players like Dorsey and Ellis just don't come along every year.

And comparing Dorsey and Ellis to Sullivan is just selective reasoning to justify whichever player you desire. There is not a safer pick than Dorsey and Ellis in the first round and thus the reason so many teams are talking about taking them (Atlanta, Oakland, Kansas City, Miami, Cinci).