N/S Where Does Reid Rank With A Second Championship? (1 Viewer)

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Saint Jack

Saint Jack

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A lot has been made about Mahomes and where he is all time with a second championship and rightfully so. He’s on his way to becoming an all time great. But I think Andy Reid is getting overlooked. Where does he rank? Another championship makes him the greatest Chiefs coach of all time, beating HOFer Hank Stram. Is he top 5? Top 10? HOF worthy?
 
Definitely HOF worthy. Barring injury Mahomes will Win several championships. Reid has been to many NFC championships prior to that. Then again here sits Tom Flores with 2 championships, 3 Super Bowl appearances yet he is not in the hall of fame??
 
OneBigEasy!! said:
Definitely HOF worthy. Barring injury Mahomes will Win several championships. Reid has been to many NFC championships prior to that. Then again here sits Tom Flores with 2 championships, 3 Super Bowl appearances yet he is not in the hall of fame??
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Those Coors Light ads are gonna get him in very soon.
 
B4YOU said:
A win and he is Bill Parcells (2-1 for SBs) with a much better win%. It would make him arguably a 10-15 best coach of the SB era. He would also be the only active 2+ SB HC not coaching in NE.
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Some NFL fans, columnists, writers, and pundits, have been arguing that Reid probably was a borderline HOF-caliber HC before Mahomes took over the reigns and took the Chiefs from being annual AFC West division champs to hosting AFCCG's in 2018 if you examine his overall win-loss HC record pre-2018 Mahomes. Winning a Super Bowl probably clinched enough HOF votes for Reid once his time for induction comes up. He won well over 100 games as Eagles HC and turned them into a perennial playoff contender for over a decade. He goes to Kansas City and immediately they win, what is it, 12 games in 2013, his first season there. He helped Alex Smith realize his potential and transformed him into a 4-time Pro Bowler and helped build the core of the defense thats blossomed into the dominant unit it is now.

Lets not try to create too much revisionist history here. Kansas City was a very good team before Patrick Mahomes was drafted in 2017, he was just that key, missing ingredient, that very good teams are lucky to get sometimes that coalesce and rocket them off so far ahead of their competition.

If we're examining Reid's HOF credentials in terms of overall wins and losses, he'd been a lock way back in 2016-17. Even when we count SB losses as negative marks against other past NFL HC's, why is it HCs like Bud Grant and Marv Levy are in Canton and Marty Schottenheimer and Dan Reeves are still left waiting? Reeves lost the same amount of Super Bowls during his coaching career as Grant and Levy did, but his winning % is just as impressive as their's. Schottenheimer, I can understand because he could consistently always lose or choke away leads in playoff games, irregardless of whatever team he coached, sometimes due to bad luck, being out coached or bad coaching or coaching scared by being too conservative in the most crucial of moments?

One, unfortunate reason that may explain why or the reasoning behind NFL writers or HOF voters tend to overlook Flores for HOF induction is that he kind of took over a Raiders team that was sort of championship ready by 1980 and many of the Raiders players on Flores 1st SB Raiders winning squad were Madden holdovers and that was still more his team, his players, his mentality winning then Flores making his own significant imprint on the team. Some NFL writers have dubbed 1980 Raiders as Madden's "second SB-winning team". Now, the 1983 Raiders were definitely his team and probably his finest hour as an NFL HC. But after that win, while Raiders made two more playoff appearances in 84 and 85, Flores never won another playoff game and those two consecutive seasons where they went one-and-done might've been held unfairly against him.

Then there's this strange sort of unorthodox phenomenon in terms of how NFL evaluates how you judge some Raiders players, HC's, determining the extent of their greatness depends of how lively, vocal, nasty, or larger-then-life personalities or feared, ominous on-field personas they carried that people associated more so with Raiders back then then now. Tom Flores was a quiet, introverted, highly intelligent play caller and motivating HC but he didnt court controversy and he wasn't this larger-then-life, animated near-cartoon character his predecessor was or like many of his players or the team's notorious owner did. Its like the HOF almost uses or takes into consideration other factors when it comes to judging or coming to consensus if this particular Raider great falls into enough of these specially arranged categories custom fit for Raiders only and if they don't, its counted against them.

That's the sort of historical reputation the Raiders and the qualitative/quantitative factors that are used as determining scales that wouldn't be used with us or 30 other NFL teams. But its used against Flores unfortunately, for some reason by a few key NFL voters. Which, admittedly, is a strange, stupid asinine bullshirt determination of logic, but IMHO, it is a factor that exists, regardless.

Don't assume that I agree with any or most of the abovementioned arguments or collecting reasoning I hoped I've satisfactorily described. I think it's just as ridiculous and mind-boggling as some posters probably will reading my reply to this thread. Just take that into consideration and please avoid in tagging me along as being stupid as that attempted explanation above was.
 
Saint Jack said:
Payton is in. He’s got the championship. He’s in the top 15 in playoff wins. The closer he gets to 200 wins, the more it is a lock.
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Here's where my little nagging concern comes in, lets examine the hypothetical but plausible scenario where maybe they screw Sean over once he's retired like they did with Mike Holmgren? IMHO, Holmgren has a pretty damn good overall win-loss HC record too and took 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and won one, too(Super Bowl XXXI), Holmgren's been retired for over a decade and he's yet to be inducted or even be included among the Semifinalists or among the Gold Jacket finalists?

What's the hold up? And lets not just leave it at him, what about Dan Reeves? He lost 4 Super Bowls but so did Bud Grant and Marv Levy so lets not too be critical in holding that against them and Reeves built winning teams wherever he coached(Broncos, Giants, and Falcons) and he was a great asst. HC with Landry's Cowboys during the 1970's along with Mike Ditka, and he had a pretty decent NFL playing career, in the late 60's and early 70's with Dallas.

Is it possible they screw Sean once he safefully retired and out of the way like they've done so far with Holmgren and Reeves considering the mutual contempt and animosity between both sides for most of Payton's time here in New Orleans? I wouldn't overrule the possibility NFL FO types might consider the possibility?
 
To get in the HoF as a coach I think you need to have something about your narrative that stands out and have a good track record. Or you could just have a dominant track record.

- His win percentage is pretty good. It's one of the better ones of his peers. Not the best but good enough.
- His playoffs per season are very good, nothing staggering but the best of his peers.
- His Superbowls per playoff appearance is very low. Around half the average of his peers that frequent the playoffs. If he gets 1 more that will even out though.
- He is known as one of the best offensive creative minds in the league and is generally likable.
- He has coached for a long time to move up cumulative lists.

So if he gets another Superbowl all his averages will look fine to his peers. He's going to have cumulative numbers. He has a good narrative around him. He has reliably productive offenses.

I think he would definitely get in with another Superbowl.



As far as Payton, I think he checks all the boxes except he doesn't have the same kind of longevity. I think how the Saints do post Brees will go a long way for Payton's HoF bid. I think he's on track he just can't fail the next stage.
 
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Saintman2884 said:
Here's where my little nagging concern comes in, lets examine the hypothetical but plausible scenario where maybe they screw Sean over once he's retired like they did with Mike Holmgren? IMHO, Holmgren has a pretty damn good overall win-loss HC record too and took 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and won one, too(Super Bowl XXXI), Holmgren's been retired for over a decade and he's yet to be inducted or even be included among the Semifinalists or among the Gold Jacket finalists?

What's the hold up? And lets not just leave it at him, what about Dan Reeves? He lost 4 Super Bowls but so did Bud Grant and Marv Levy so lets not too be critical in holding that against them and Reeves built winning teams wherever he coached(Broncos, Giants, and Falcons) and he was a great asst. HC with Landry's Cowboys during the 1970's along with Mike Ditka, and he had a pretty decent NFL playing career, in the late 60's and early 70's with Dallas.

Is it possible they screw Sean once he safefully retired and out of the way like they've done so far with Holmgren and Reeves considering the mutual contempt and animosity between both sides for most of Payton's time here in New Orleans? I wouldn't overrule the possibility NFL FO types might consider the possibility?
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I think their winning percentage is what’s holding them back. Both have below .600 while Payton is at .638, the 21st highest at the moment.
 
All I know is, when I watch the Chiefs, his offensive gameplan is phenomenal. They have the speed on the outside, can block to give Mahomes time to throw it to them and his play designs are re inventing the game. All the mis direction he causes creates confusion on the defense. Those Goal to go situations are almost impossible to stop. I think he belongs in the HOF, just like Payton will but Payton needs to get back to his offensive prowess again, and soon.
 
Saint Jack said:
Payton is in. He’s got the championship. He’s in the top 15 in playoff wins. The closer he gets to 200 wins, the more it is a lock.
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Bountygate made his requirements 2 SB or a .667% win rate and 1 more SB appearance.

Seifert, Shannahan, Coughlin, and Flores have 2 and are not in the HoF. Also, coaches don’t usually leave with winning seasons like Dungy but instead hurt their % after several bad seasons. Payton’s win % is most likely going down after this season.

HoF HC with only 1 SB:
  • Madden with .759%, broadcaster, video game
  • Ditka as a player and coach
  • Cowher with 2SB appearances, broadcaster
  • Dungy with .668%, credited with TB win by some, broadcaster, book, etc.
Payton needs more on his resume.
 
Saint Jack said:
Payton is in. He’s got the championship. He’s in the top 15 in playoff wins. The closer he gets to 200 wins, the more it is a lock.
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I don't think you realize how hard it is for a coach to get in the HOF
 

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