Why Are Stats Used to Justify Who's The GOAT In Other Positions But Not QB? (1 Viewer)

[SaintsFanInLA]

If you ask who's the greatest RB in the NFL, the first 3 names you will most likely hear are:

Barry Sanders yards 15,269 rushing (3rd), TDs 99
Walter Payton yards 16,726 rushing(2nd), TDs 110 (4th)
Emmitt Smith yards 18,355 rushing (1st) , TDs 164 (1st)

If I ask you who's the greatest WR in the NFL, the first 3 names you will most likely hear are:

Jerry Rice yards 22,895 (1st) receiving TDs 197 (1st)
Terrell Owens yards 15,934 (2nd) receiving TDs 153 (3rd)
Larry Fitzgerald * yards 15,721 (3rd) , receiving TDs 110 (8th)
Randy Moss yards 15,292 (4th), receiving TDs 156 (2nd)

But when you ask who's the greatest QB in the NFL, you hear:

Brady* yards 67,418 (4th), Passing TDs 500(3rd), Completion % 64 (12th)
Manning yards 71,940(2nd), Passing TDs 539 (1st), Completion % 65.3 (5th)
Montana yards 40,551 (18th), Passing TDs 273 (16th), Completion % 63.2 (15th)
Elway yards 51,478 (9th), Passing TDs 300 (11), Completion % 56.9 (90th)
Favre yards 71,838 (3rd), Passing TDs 508 (2nd), Completion % 62 (26th)
Rodgers* yards 40,074 (20th), Passing TDs 323 (10th), Completion % 65 (7th)

*Still playing

Drew Brees yards 72,103 (1st) Passing TDs 499 (4th), Completion % 67.2 (1st)

By the time Brees finishes, he more than likely will hold first place in all of these categories. In what other sport can you finish `1st in every salient stat for your position and NOT be considered Top 5, if not the greatest?

Yet all of these analysts INSIST that he is not top 5. I thought sports was supposed to be the last bastion of dispassionate and logical thinking.

 

[ChaChingBaby]

I imagine it has to do with advanced stats and the way the game has changed with rules and advancements of offensive systems.

Any QB today can throw for 350 yards and 4 TDs. Even garbage like Tannehll and Bortles often have monster productive games. It even happens in a losing effort.

I would not put Rodgers in that category with the others. In fact, he's barely a top 20 all time quarterback by almost every other metric.

Football Perspective did a run down article of the 100 greatest quarterbacks last year. They ranked Brees at #3, only behind Peyton Manning at #1 and Dan Marino at #2. Their argument for Marino was strong putting him that high, as they pointed out just how much of the record book he owned prior to his retirement and what a huge margin of the record book he had. They put Brees ahead of Brady though in their list. It was fair at least to my opinion. Hard to argue with Manning, Marino and Brees as a top 3.

The ring argument really needs to die when it comes to judging QBs. Terry Bradshaw has 4 rings and he'll never be considered among the GOAT quarterbacks. I don't care if Brady wins a 6th, he wasn't better than Peyton Manning in his prime and isn't better than Brees now.

 

[Mpro2]

Yeah, I had this argument with a co-worker yesterday telling me that Brady is still the best QB because of his rings....so, I asked him who he thought the best kicker is in NFL history? He replied, Justin Tucker. And I asked, is it because of his one superbowl championship? He replied "Nope, he is the most accurate"!? Unfreaking believable...I DON'T GET IT!

 

[BreesIsMyFather]

It sucks how it only comes down to the No of rings. This is the best comeback for any hater.

 

[SaintsFanInLA]

Yeah, I had this argument with a co-worker yesterday telling me that Brady is still the best QB because of his rings....so, I asked him who he thought the best kicker is in NFL history? He replied, Justin Tucker. And I asked, is it because of his one superbowl championship? He replied "Nope, he is the most accurate"!? Unfreaking believable...I DON'T GET IT!

The moving goalpost narrative. It's almost hilarious how frustrating it is.

 

[dutar76]

I think the whole GOAT QB argument is unwinnable. I get that wins are directly associated with QBs. I dont think it's fair or even accurate, but I get it. I think wins and yes, Superbowls are more of a reflection of the coach and the front office myself.

But QBs get that tag as well. So I say, let's go win another few superbowls and clear that up once and for all.

 

[Alaina]

QB is seen as a leadership position only overtaken by the head coach. It's easy to believe the QB is by far the most impactful player on the field. That's probably why wins are tied to greatness at the position. It's an unfair and simple view, but it is what it is.

Maybe I should start asking if defense wins championships when people bring up the rings argument.

 

[Wingdog]

The parallel argument I like to use is from another sport, basketball. Specifically, Duncan versus Garnett. Duncan had the better career, mainly because of the team that drafted him. But when I ask, who was the better player, all else being equal, the question is tougher to answer. I personally think Garnett was better. Same with Brees versus Brady.

 

[blackadder]

Because Drew Brees in playing in New Orleans has outclassed everyone with incomparable stats in most categories, so you must move the goalposts.

If Brees has played for the NY Giants the legend would already be in place.

 

[Yatman]

Teams win rings, QBs earn rankings empirically, by position stats. (Unless Elias fudges your record-breaker.)

The Greatest anything is completely subjective. It's opinion. It's zeitgeist.

Thing about record books is that everything's laid out for readers to decide for themselves. They may have an opinion of who's greatest, but stats leave no doubt about who's BEST.

When all the blowhards are long gone, Brees' unassailable numbers will still be there, topping most or all categories for QB. Huzzah!

 

[Heartbreak Kid]

What’s even better is that all the people who are “tired of Brady and the patriots winning” so much are the same people arguing that he’s GOAT over a Drew Brees because of rings...

 

[bobad]

It sucks how it only comes down to the No of rings. This is the best comeback for any hater.

It really is that simple.

It's almost like fame is a stat. A Conference championship gets you 30 points, a SB championship gets you 100, being on SNL gets you 20, being in a controversy with the NFL gets you 15, having a ton of records get you 10, haveing a model wife 20, having great hair 20, driving a Lambo 20, and so forth.

Unfortunately, Drew has a way to go to be MBP famous.

 

[someone]

Crazy.. I was thinking about this last night. I used to lean towards rings until I finally stopped being stupid. Football is such a team sport. I think once a quarterback shows you they can win a championship, the total number doesn't matter. Their future championships or lack thereof has more to do with their surroundings (team, coaches, situation). If this wasn't the case, guys like Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer wouldn't be champions. On the other hand, Matt Stafford and Matt Ryan have never broken through, so regardless of their numbers, they'll always be remembered as "good quarterbacks."

Drew only has one ring because of the teams he's been on. He's been the best player on the team since he arrived in New Orleans. His numbers don't lie. He is without a doubt, the GreatestOfAllTime.

 

[SweetT]

Man I sure hope that we can get Drew a second ring so the GOAT conversation gets really heated. Pundits would have to give the man his due then, or at least more than they do now

 

[DomSan]

Honestly, I don't get this GOAT thing, and the hype surrounding it. First of all, why is there a need to proclaim an individual player as the best in a team sport? That really is an oxymoron. And secondly, while we're at it, what does GOAT exactly refer to?:

1. Greatest QB of all times?
Then I think Brees has a legitimate shot, statistically for sure, and so does Brady (those five rings are good paperweights for a lot of paper) and also the QB-s listed in the initial post. Oh, and let me give you another one, just a food for tought: Otto Graham, who was drafted in the first round, but had a little distraction to the start of his career called second world war, but after serving in the navy and kicking some arse he returned to football (Ok, quickly before that he won the championship of the pre-NBA NBL en passe), and went on to win 4 AAFC and 2 NFL chapionships, retired, but his successor played so bad he had to come back and win another championship. Cold.

2. Gteatest NFL player of all times?
Here things are getting murkier, but I'd say Brees, Brady, Manning, and some other QBs still have a legitimate shot, but the field is definetly getting more crowded with guys like Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, Walter Payton, Jack Ham, and the list goes on like forever. My personal favorite for example, Chuck Bednarik who played linebacker and center (because playing on only one unit is for wussies) and did both with menace.

3. Greatest Of all Times - In Football, epitomizing this sport?
Well, up until this point there has been a race, and there could be discussion, arguing, cussing, whatever. But not here. This is clear as a diamond. There can be no other than just one, Namely: George. Friggin. Halas.
Why?
Let's see what this guy put on the table:
-standout college player
-basicly the father of navy football
-standout NFL player (yup, he's been an all pro +1 NFL championship as player)
-standout coach (need to mention, that for some time he was coaching while also playing? Oh and he was head coach for a meager 40 years. 6 NFL championships as HC)
-standout team owner and shaper of the league's ways.
So in a nutshell, there are only a few that had an impact of this magnitude on the league, and there is virtually no other person who's legacy of success spans all aspects there are in football from college to NFL ownership, like in his case. This one's not even close, there are only distant seconds, Mr Everything rules this summit.

Peace.