Why isn't Judas considered the greatest hero in Christianity? (1 Viewer)

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The very name Judas is synonymous with betrayal.

But if you believe the events of the Bible, here's a dude who was one of the chosen 12 who gave up everything to follow Jesus. They were a brotherhood. And then this event transpired that had to happen for the salvation of the Earth. In fact, Jesus asked that the cup be taken away, and God said no. That ish was going down.

So in comes Judas. Dude has to betray his friend and teacher because God is making it happen. So this pawn gets carried along in the tides of prophesy despite clearly not wanting to. And it damages him so much he kills himself and donates the money.

And somehow HE'S the bad guy. Dude is the definition of a hero. Sacrifices his own desires for the greater good.

(apparently there some apocrypha that suggest he was a good dude.)

And I did a search to make sure this topic hasn't been covered, but there was so much Judas priest to sift through I gave up, so sorry if repost.
 

Oye

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But isn't that true for anything that exists in nature? Being a tree, a fish, a fly... nature is brutal. "Existence is a gift, by existing you suffer, therefore suffering is a gift"... sounds a very flawed argument to me, especially because I don't think existence is a gift, it just existence.
okay, it's flawed

chance is chance, sure. A sperm from millions and millions fertilizing an egg. And I'm here. But there's also fortuitous chance. My existence, in a literal sense, is absolutely chance. In a strictly biological, cardiopulmonary manner I just am.

But I also don't think it just ends there of necessity. So it's something I think I can feel some measure of gratitude for. Were I not to exist, I wouldn't know - obviously - and so you might think that my 'gratitude' in contrast is odd, because there's no real contrary state except not-to-exist

So, I'd frame it another way. Death is not existing, and I can be grateful that I'm not dead - even though there is a lot of chance to that, too.
 

Mamba

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There are many things that unfortunately many people believe, but you can't ascertain that Yahweh didn't know or predestined Judas to betray Jesus from rationalizing a passage in the NT.

The point is, Yahweh sent his son to be sacrificed by humans so he could forgive humans of their sins. Unless you believe Yahweh took a chance and didn't really know what was going to happen, he had to know Jesus was going to be sacrificed. So there is predetermination there.
While I have quibbles with the theology behind your second sentence, I'll set that issue aside.

I don't claim that God predetermines nothing. Just that he doesn't predetermine everything, specifically the eternal fate of human beings.
 

kcirdor

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Same here. I think non-religious people spend a lot more time talking and thinking about religion than I do. I just know I believe, I don't debate it.
The only time I think about religion is when I am reading these threads. Maybe someone in their 20s, or someone that likes to argue or someone making money on the subject... but no once your mind is made up and you are tired of arguing. You don't really care about this stuff anymore.
 

DaveXA

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It shows a willingness to die for an ideology. But if the criteria is getting killed for an ideology by someone else, that too is common throughout human history: non-Christians during inquisitions/invasions/conquests, anyone who's been killed/executed fighting a revolution... there really is nothing special about early Christians being executed for their religion.

Speaking of Christians specifically, you don't know if those early Christians were given the chance to recant; you don't know that they didn't retaliate or resist in any way; you don't know if their executions were the result of merely professing an ideology, or because of the perceived threat of that ideology to the ruling party, which are two different things.


Perhaps that's why we are non-religious.
Perhaps, but my comment was merely an observation, nothing more meant by it.

While neither of us can say authoritatively what exactly happened, there are plenty of written examples and eyewitness accounts of such happening that it's hard to deny that many of the faithful who were martyred were killed for either not recanting or not renouncing their faith. We can quibble over statistics, but to blanket deny that anyone would ever do that is to ignore multitudes of eyewitness and first hand accounts of people being martyred.

I'm not talking about people fighting a revolution. I'm talking about people who were peaceful and not a threat to anyone being martyred for no other reason than being Christian.

Certainly it's happened to adherents of other religions. I don't deny that. But I think it's a topic worth acknowledging that Christians have faced persecution for 2000 years simply because of their faith.

And sure, a lot that's happened over that period of time has been a mix of politics and religion, but that doesn't invalidate the idea that people have been killed on the basis of faith alone for centuries.
 

antipop

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Same here. I think non-religious people spend a lot more time talking and thinking about religion than I do. I just know I believe, I don't debate it.
we live in a world that is largely dominated by religious ideology....some good and some bad...i think the dynamic there is pretty interesting

i also think atheists are simply tired of others telling them what they should do based on those ideologies...it's not as simple as just wanting to argue

but i don't really bother with it anymore....mostly because it always ends up in broken record territory on both sides....
 

guidomerkinsrules

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Certainly it's happened to adherents of other religions. I don't deny that. But I think it's a topic worth acknowledging that Christians have faced persecution for 2000 years simply because of their faith.
very much a quibble
but i would say, yes chrisitanity faced persecution for the 1st 3 centuries
but once constantine is all holy roman empire, it gets pretty sweet for christians in europe and then 'america'
when they evangelize in other cultures and try to 'colonize' other religions, i'm not sure 'persecuted' is the apt term
 

SystemShock

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Perhaps, but my comment was merely an observation, nothing more meant by it.

While neither of us can say authoritatively what exactly happened, there are plenty of written examples and eyewitness accounts of such happening that it's hard to deny that many of the faithful who were martyred were killed for either not recanting or not renouncing their faith. We can quibble over statistics, but to blanket deny that anyone would ever do that is to ignore multitudes of eyewitness and first hand accounts of people being martyred.

I'm not talking about people fighting a revolution. I'm talking about people who were peaceful and not a threat to anyone being martyred for no other reason than being Christian.

Certainly it's happened to adherents of other religions. I don't deny that. But I think it's a topic worth acknowledging that Christians have faced persecution for 2000 years simply because of their faith.

And sure, a lot that's happened over that period of time has been a mix of politics and religion, but that doesn't invalidate the idea that people have been killed on the basis of faith alone for centuries.
This is where we start getting in "come on, man" territory.

I am not blanketing denying anything, or talking about statistics. I am saying being killed over ideology is not some special virtue of early Christians.

And here is when we get into "are you forking kidding me?!?" territory.
But I think it's a topic worth acknowledging that Christians have faced persecution for 2000 years simply because of their faith.
... when it is Christians who have been doing the persecuting for the majority of those 2000 years.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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The one thing I will never understand is why an athiest will argue with or challenge a Christian over their faith. I have no problem with it, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever.
in isolation, what someone believes has little to no impact
once that belief becomes political - meaning they want their beliefs to have an impact on others' lives - then you want to investigate if their is some soundness to that belief
 

SystemShock

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The one thing I will never understand is why an athiest will argue with or challenge a Christian over their faith. I have no problem with it, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Christians have been arguing with other people over their faiths for centuries. It used to be that they'd send soldier monks to foreign lands to retake holy places, round up non Christians and torture them to make them convert, burned them at the stake if they didn't... nowadays they are not as violent, they just send missionaries to argue with others about their faith to try and convert them to Christianity.

Then there is the part where Christians want to force their beliefs on others through secular law.
 

rajncajn

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Christians have been arguing with other people over their faiths for centuries. It used to be that they'd send soldier monks to foreign lands to retake holy places, round up non Christians and torture them to make them convert, burned them at the stake if they didn't... nowadays they are not as violent, they just send missionaries to argue with others about their faith to try and convert them to Christianity.

Then there is the part where Christians want to force their beliefs on others through secular law.
I'm glad you made the distinction of how things were done in the past and how Christians discuss their faith in current times. That still doesn't explain the desire to refute all beliefs of Christianity.
 

SystemShock

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I'm glad you made the distinction of how things were done in the past and how Christians discuss their faith in current times. That still doesn't explain the desire to refute all beliefs of Christianity.
I thought the last sentence was clear. I could add when Christians deny science... when they want to pass religion as science in classrooms, make students pray... when I see PragerU and the like target atheist channels in youtube ... when I hear people talk about how atheism is a disease... when I see people being denied things because they are not like they are supposed to be like the Bible says or they want to do something like the Bible prohibits... when I see people giving their life savings to some jerk in a very expensive suit because he's going to cure them of some incurable disease by pushing on their forehead... when I see the Pope sitting on his golden throne, knowing his corporation is actively hiding child molesters, telling people in AIDS infested areas not to use condoms... when I see Mike Pence... when I hear evangelicals declaring Trump was sent by god... when my tax dollars go to Israel...

... or simply just a matter of spreading truth.
 

jsberry

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The one thing I will never understand is why an athiest will argue with or challenge a Christian over their faith. I have no problem with it, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Because it is unpleasant to encounter smart people who believe stupid things.

Because it is disturbing to see honest people who support such dishonesty.

Because it is wrong, in this land of freedom, to inflict one's superstitions on another.
 

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