Why Spagnuolo & Flajole were fired (1 Viewer)

[birdog]

Or the coaching. Look at a guy like Dunbar. He went to St. Louis and had a great year. That tells me that he was developed well (Vitt did his job) but he was not being used properly by our team. (or he was just highly limited in what he could do in our system.)

Anyway, the fact is that the last couple years that Gregg Williams was here, the defense was pretty good at least in term of points given up and that's really what matters isn't it. What appears to have killed Williams was that he did not get along with the rest of the staff and he had a penchant for leaving Roman Harper one on one with Vernon Davis.

I'm not saying the talent evaluation has been perfect, it's been far from that. But, there is enough defensive talent on this team to have a decent defense and not the historically terrible defense that was put on the field last year. To be that bad is almost all about coaching.

Rob Ninkovitch also comes to mind.....we couldn't use his talents, and he looked promising. Now he is a pretty good player for the Pats.

 

[St. Widge]

Rob Ninkovitch also comes to mind.....we couldn't use his talents, and he looked promising. Now he is a pretty good player for the Pats.

Both, by the way, were developed by Vitt who is a favorite whipping boy for the bad LB play around here. You think you know . . .

 

[Domeination]

My theory is it is a little bit of both, FO missing of a few defensive prospects, and our inability to develop them properly and get the best out of them.

But at the end of the day, Spags couldnt have felt safe after fieldign that defense. I just felt like he was overrated. Still riding on the wave of his Giants SB defense which had future HOF'er and 3 other young studs on the defensive line. His Rams defense was more telling, he had 3 years to draft and develop players and they just were not very good.

This.

 

[LSSpam]

The defense was 13th in points allowed in 2011. In 2010 the defense arguably carried the offense at times, and was ranked 7th.

I kow everyone remembers the Seattle and San Francisco playoff games, that's part of why Williams got fired, but those defenses weren't bad, and the 2010 defense in particular was downright good.

 

[LSSpam]

Or the coaching. Look at a guy like Dunbar. He went to St. Louis and had a great year. That tells me that he was developed well (Vitt did his job) but he was not being used properly by our team. (or he was just highly limited in what he could do in our system.)

Anyway, the fact is that the last couple years that Gregg Williams was here, the defense was pretty good at least in term of points given up and that's really what matters isn't it. What appears to have killed Williams was that he did not get along with the rest of the staff and he had a penchant for leaving Roman Harper one on one with Vernon Davis.

I'm not saying the talent evaluation has been perfect, it's been far from that. But, there is enough defensive talent on this team to have a decent defense and not the historically terrible defense that was put on the field last year. To be that bad is almost all about coaching.

Dunbar was being used properly. He had taking one of the starting spots to end 2011. Had GW been kept I think his vision for the linebackers was Casillas, Dunbar, and Vilma.

But Spags came in and decided he wanted his own guy, Chamberlain, and let Dunbar reunite with Greg Williams (briefly) in St Louis for the same contract we gave Chamberlain.

Ninikovich walking was more understandable. He was hurt a lot when he was here, which made it hard to keep him on the roster. And while New England has turned him into a serviceable player, he's not outstanding. As a point of comparison, I'd rather have galette for instance.

 

[Swimmer]

Something personal had to go on I think. Whether this was it, I don't know, but this wasn't just business.

I'd bet a lot of money Spags did something to piss Payton off outside of his horrid performance as DC.

It pains me to agree with you Bonchie, but I do on this one. It could have been Spags relationship and problems with Vitt.

 

[saints28]

Well Spags was right you have a bunch over paid players that cant perform. Spags has issues yes But theses players have never played at a high level.

 

[LSSpam]

They have done anything but neglect the defense. When your defense is full of high round talent and is barely scratching medicore something is wrong with talent evaluation.

Maybe. But again, we had a pretty good defense from 2009-2011, certainly one good enough to win 13 games and compete/win a Super Bowl. The only reason we had only 11 wins in 2010 was Brees threw like 25 picks that year, the defense was actually outstanding that year (especially given all the offensive turnovers).

Ad during that stretch Will Smith had like 30 sacks over those 3 years, roman Harper was a two time pro bowler, we though Malcolm Jenkins was going to be pro bowler. The Vilma trade paid off. Jabari Greer turned out to be a free agency steal, so did Darren Sharper. Patrick Robinson looked promising his first year, man we thought we had the CB position "solved". Even Sedrick Ellis didn't look like a total bust.

In 2011 our personal department looked pretty damn smart. Suddenly they're idiots? I guess drafting for one scheme and coached by a competent coach, then switching to a radically different scheme under some of the most inauspicious circumstances ever coached by a guy the players hated by midseason.....well no. No. You're right, has to be the front office.

 

[birdog]

The defense was 13th in points allowed in 2011. In 2010 the defense arguably carried the offense at times, and was ranked 7th.

I kow everyone remembers the Seattle and San Francisco playoff games, that's part of why Williams got fired, but those defenses weren't bad, and the 2010 defense in particular was downright good.

Points given up is kind of misleading.....a team can give up a few points, and still lose the game by pretty good margin.

But teams know how to play the Saints.....they usually play the field position game, in which they march down the field, and even when they punt, they usually pin back the Saints offense inside their 20 yds line.

If Drew Brees has any flaws in his game is his passing inside the Saints 20 yds line. A good deal of his pick 6s come from there. So, the D should be partially to blame. Constantly giving up field position and make it much harder for the offense to maximize their potential was a problem, especially against better Ds....like the 9rs D. All Kaepernick had to do is move the ball towards the midfield.....and punt, pinning back the Saints offense inside their own red zone.....Drew Brees ended up throwing 1, or 2 picks, I believe, when he started to drive from there.

So teams are well aware of that, and look both to the clowns and Panthers.....they try to do exactly that, all the time.....just go towards the midfield...and punt. Sooner or later the Saints offense will make a mistake, and will cost them points.

 

[uptbigdawg]

The Saints defense was bad well before Spags got to NOLA. That is quite clear. their rankings reflected that, even though there was a year or 2 when the D played better.

But nowhere as bad as in 2012.......and Spags is to blame for that.

All Sean Payton had to do is to assess the defensive performance in previous years and last year...the difference was startling! I came to this conclusion without any inside info. But truth to be told....the personnel dept. deserves some of the blame for neglecting the Saints D for years!

Spags deserved to get canned, and Sean Payton did the right thing. I just wish that Sean Payton will scrutinize the personnel dept just as vigorously, as he did with Spags.

Neglect the D? There were 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks all over that D in the Payton regime Ellis, Jordan, Jenkins, Robinson, Wilson(3rd), Harper(2nd), Porter(2), Johnny Patrick(3rd), and Usama Young(3rd). Free Agents like Sharper, Alex Brown, Shaun Rogers, A. Franklin, Bunkley, Lofton, Hawthorne traded for Vilma etc im sure I missed quite a few but the last thing they have done is neglect the defensive side of the ball. Yeah maybe they have missed on a few FAs and draft picks on that side of the ball, but it hasnt been ignored.

 

[LSSpam]

Points given up is kind of misleading.....a team can give up a few points, and still lose the game by pretty good margin..

In 2010 we were 4th in yards allowed. We gave up only 13 passing touchdowns. And this was with Drew Brees being 30th in interceptions thrown. In 2011 we did slip to 24th, but that was a function of Greg Williams going Buddha with the blitz and becoming one with it. It wasn't long drives we gave up, it was big plays.

We were league leaders in time of possession all 3 years.

Those were good defenses. Look records don't lie. 37-11, 4-2 playoff record, 1 Super Bowl. That doesn't happen without at least a decent defense.

 

[max]

They should have fired the scouts responsible for assembling the poor defensive players too.

 

[Suavecito8]

In 2010 we were 4th in yards allowed. We gave up only 13 passing touchdowns. And this was with Drew Brees being 30th in interceptions thrown. In 2011 we did slip to 24th, but that was a function of Greg Williams going Buddha with the blitz and becoming one with it. It wasn't long drives we gave up, it was big plays.

We were league leaders in time of possession all 3 years.

Those were good defenses. Look records don't lie. 37-11, 4-2 playoff record, 1 Super Bowl. That doesn't happen without at least a decent defense.

All of this.

 

[SaintJ]

Thanks km. Spags almost sounds like Rick Venturi with all the complex schemes and theory.

I just got a cold shiver from the simple mention of that name.

 

[LSSpam]

This rewriting of history concerning 2009-2011 is starting to piss me off.

I get the anger over the Seattle and 49ers playoff losses. But those were coaching losses. Roman Harper matched up on Vernon Davis...look even if you thought before the game he could handle it, it was obvious by the 4th quarter he couldn't. That's a bad in game decision.

The defenses, as a whole, were solid-to-good. We were pumped about our defensive players then. Guys like Harper were making Pro Bowls, and guys like Greer should have been. Our draft picks looked good, free agents panned out, trades justified.


People on here were ****** when we took Patrick Robinson because they thought the secondary was too crowded with good players

So don't sit here now and act like this defense has just been abysmal Payton's entire tenure. Last year was the aberration. A function of a coach the players hated, absolutely bizarre circumstances forced on us by Goodell, a radical shift in scheme our players did not fit, and daddy just not being home.

I'm not saying well have an elite defense next year. If it weren't for the turnovers GWa first year that defense would have been average. But that's what we'll do I think. An "average" defense.