Why take so many shots at Peat? (1 Viewer)

[sammymvpknight]

I’m ok with people criticizing Peat. But this isn’t about Peat...this is about Brees supporters being completely incapable of saying anything negative about Brees. Peat is pretty much low hanging fruit at this point.

I can’t help but laugh at the idea that Peats awful and will be easily upgraded upon. Peat was a 1st round pick. He’s a two time pro bowl. Larry Warford is a two time pro bowl. Erik McCoy is all-rookie and widely regarded as one of the best young centers in the game. If that’s not enough...I just don’t know what to tell you. Three pro bowl caliber interior offensive linemen have to be enough. It’s just not realistic to expect Brees to have a couple of hall-of-fame caliber interior offensive lineman again.

 

[Alan12]

Always good to get back to the film, and I appreciate you reviewing it and giving your views. That's when the real discussion begins.

While you definitely highlight minuses for Peat, I think you're being a bit generous. I've been there. I've watched film on him with a positive mind set, looking for the good and making adjustments in my grading to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, looked at dispassionately, I think you'll find double the amount of minuses than what you listed. Other than the OZ right for the TD, which is a minus, but not necessarily egregious, there were several minuses you showed where he was very poor, rather than didn't quite do enough to get a plus. But there were at least as many, if not more, where Peat didn't do enough for me to grade out positively. These didn't lead to sacks or pressures, or Kamara being hit in the backfield, but still aren't plus plays for me.

So on my scorecard, without getting too scientific about it, Peat graded out at around 75-80%, with several plays which were really bad. That's not pro-bowl calibre play (not that performance has much to do with pro bowl nods these days), and it isn't 'let's pay him £10m per year' play.

I agree with you that where he was drafted makes no difference, that's all in the past and neither here nor there - sunk cost as you might say and not relevant to decision making. But he's not worth a big money extension because his play doesn't warrant it, not on our Oline anyway. Modest contract to compete at LG, yes. More than that, no.

I also agree Peat gets more stick than he probably deserves. Much of that goes back to draft position, and his first year which wasn't stellar, and his troubles finding a position. And I understand fighting back against some of that, which I have done for years. But now is the time to make a decision on him, and to me, 2 pro bowls notwithstanding, he can be improved upon and isn't worth over-paying for. He's not trash, as some here would say, but he makes too many poor plays and is usually among the weakest OL performers on our line in any given week.

Since we obviously don't know the protections called, the way that I graded Peat (and any of our offensive linemen) is based on a few things.

For run blocking it's typically whether or not their defender was able to impede the flow of the run design, if the defender beat the lineman to the point of attack (such as the play Kendricks), how well the blocks are executed such as if they were able to seal their defender (or multiple defenders) off from pursuit, or if they effectively neutralized the defender by cutting them or driving them out the play entirely.

For pass blocking it's mostly down to how much pressure they allowed and whether or not that pressure was able to affect the QB in any significant way (such as the Griffen plays where Brees had to throw early or had to escape around the edge), how close their defender even gets to the QB, and their communication with passing off stunts and twists to each other.

I did have two reps where I couldn't grade it as a win nor a loss, but I didn't mark down when they were like I did for the plays that were obviously minuses. If you got any specific plays you wrote down as minuses or neutrals, I'll be happy to cap and post them and discuss?

I do agree with the bolded part, he can be improved upon and he's definitely not worth overpaying for but by the same token, we can also do much worse at the position. I also agree that he wasn't necessarily Pro Bowl-caliber this year and certainly isn't a $10M/year player. I'd likely put it around $7M to $7.5M and not a penny more.

And while I do agree his draft position is moot point for the discussion, it was another poster that referenced that and not myself.

To me he releases his blocks too soon and gets beat by spin and quick moves , he appears to be slow on his feet and I think his position should be up graded . Not picking on him he just gives up 2 many big plays up the middle and for the record I also think ARMSTEAD is fragile and gets injured often . We may need to look into a veteran backup or draft and develop his position so when he goes down we don’t have to be crossing our fingers and toes when he does .

I can agree with the previous point that he is the weak link on the offensive line. I mean that's a given considering the talent we've developed and procured across our line over the last few years. And I'm not saying it as a knock on Peat, just that in every scenario, there is a point that isn't as formidable as its counterparts. With the way our offensive line is currently constructed, that position just happens to be at LG, regardless if it's Peat or Easton in.

As I stated in the reply above, while we could possibly do better and upgrade the position, we could also do much worse at the position as well. It's for that reason I believe that depending on what Peat and his agent believe his market value is, the team will more than likely offer him a deal before free agency opens around what they're currently paying Easton or we possibly draft another offensive lineman high. I highly doubt that we are big spenders at the position in free agency and bringing a new guy in.

I think it's either Peat is re-signed and we roll with he and Easton or he walks, Easton starts, and we use draft capital on the position.

 

[Belfast Saint]

I did have two reps where I couldn't grade it as a win nor a loss, but I didn't mark down when they were like I did for the plays that were obviously minuses. If you got any specific plays you wrote down as minuses or neutrals, I'll be happy to cap and post them and discuss?

Tbh I had no desire to ever watch that game again but this thread got me interested in how well, or badly Peat actually played. Watching the all-22 is a bit of a pain as it's not easy to drill in to what you want to see. But as I only took mental notes when I watched it, I'll have to delve in again tomorrow. I'll take a note of some additional plays which I consider minuses and why. I'm not great as the technical stuff so am not going to try to get clips up. I'd be at it all day.

I agree with the grading methodology. It's always a little bit difficult when you haven't coached the players or have the playbook in front of you. But generally, the scheme of the play and what each lineman is trying to achieve becomes apparent. In terms of grading, it often boils down to subjectivity - some plays are obvious pluses, some plays are obvious minuses, and the rest fall in the middle somewhere. I don't use neutrals - either you did enough to get a plus, or else you get a minus.

 

[Belfast Saint]

If you got any specific plays you wrote down as minuses or neutrals, I'll be happy to cap and post them and discuss?

Here's the 1st half grading anyway. 21 plays, 5 minuses = 76% grade, which includes two key 3rd down pressures which killed drives.

Q1
Drive 1
1st play – Minus – Lost base on combo, jerked to the ground by DL
2nd play – Plus – could have done better to engage LB instead of overshoot, but ok
3rd play – Plus – short yardage
4th play – Plus – borderline here, gives up a lot of push but ball comes out just after 2 seconds – at 3-4 seconds that’s likely a pressure
5th play – Plus – not much work, illegal hands to the face v armstead
6th play – Plus – Good initial movement and combo but DL slides off late to make assisted tackle. Armstead should have stayed on combo longer but Peat needs to recognise where LB is going and adjust
7th play – Minus – Gets feet caught up with Armstead, but not stout enough to begin with, ends up on his butt
8th play – Plus – pass pro, ok
Drive 2 – 3:58 left
1st play – Plus – quick pass, but longer pass would have highlighted problems with pass off b/w Peat and McCoy
2nd play – Plus – OZ right, ok
3rd play – Minus* - key 3rd down, quick pressure on spin
Q2
Drive 3 – 14:58 left
1st play – Plus - Pass pro, ok
2nd play – Plus - Pass pro, ok
3rd play – Plus - Screen right, ok
4th play – Minus* - key 3rd down, too soft, gives up quick pressure, QB checks down
Drive 4 – 11:30 left
1st play – Plus – run block, ok
2nd play – Plus – Pass pro, ok
3rd play – Minus – slow and poor first step, didn’t disrupt DL at all, TD
Drive 5 – 2:49 Left
1st Play – Plus – Pass pro, ok
2nd Play – Plus – Screen right
3rd play – Plus – Pass pro, ok, INT

 

[Belfast Saint]

I guess that was a waste of a morning!

 

[Alan12]

Here's the 1st half grading anyway. 21 plays, 5 minuses = 76% grade, which includes two key 3rd down pressures which killed drives.

Nah, not a wasted morning at all! I just didn’t have the time to run through and clip the videos until now, haha.

When I watch the film, I typically do it on my computer, but I cap the videos on my phone. Capping the videos is time consuming because I have to trim them down where they’re small enjoy to upload on here.

What makes it even more time consuming is I can’t just jump directly to a specific play (like I can on the computer) when I’m watching on my phone. The entire All-22 is one big progress bar so I have to get the time of the play I need, then I have to drag the cursor around to where I think it is, then wait until that play is done so I can see the stadium clock when they show it before every play. Rinse and repeat until I get to each play I need. ?

Anyways! Let’s get back into it. I bolded the plays I capped videos for and listed them each below.

Q1
Drive 1
1st play – Minus – Lost base on combo, jerked to the ground by DL
2nd play – Plus – could have done better to engage LB instead of overshoot, but ok
3rd play – Plus – short yardage
4th play – Plus – borderline here, gives up a lot of push but ball comes out just after 2 seconds – at 3-4 seconds that’s likely a pressure
5th play – Plus – not much work, illegal hands to the face v armstead
6th play – Plus – Good initial movement and combo but DL slides off late to make assisted tackle. Armstead should have stayed on combo longer but Peat needs to recognise where LB is going and adjust
7th play – Minus – Gets feet caught up with Armstead, but not stout enough to begin with, ends up on his butt
8th play – Plus – pass pro, ok

1st play - I see what you're saying and can understand why you gave it a minus. He did end up on the ground, but I ended up giving it a plus due to a few things: the initial contact was good, he drove Stephen back a solid yard even before Armstead joins on the combo, and it ultimately appears as though it's the force from Armstead that knocks him over. At the point where Armstead joins to combo, Stephen is starting to use Peat's pad height against him and has him off balance. One of the disadvantages to having a 6'7" LG I suppose. If Peat's weight happens to be on his right leg at that instance, I doubt he ends up on the ground. However if you told me that we can get 4 yards on that run all game even with Peat getting knocked over from friendly fire, I'd take that trade off every time.
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4th play - Joseph did get a solid push on that snap, I have to admit. Peat had a great first step on it as well so it really worked out in our favor that it was a short design and the ball was out quick because had he not gotten a such a good first step or if it would've been a slightly longer developing play, it absolutely would've been a pressure and possibly a hit if Hunter didn't get to Brees first around Ramczyk. Funny side note about this play, I sit in Section 144 so this play happened directly in front of us. Not sure if it's visible on the broadcast view or not (it's not on the All-22) but right after this play, Peat goes to the umpire and motions that he got hit in the face by Joseph and then the next play, the umpire sees Griffen with his hands all up in Armstead's face and we get the flag.
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6th play - Agree with every word there. I think Peat wasn't expecting Armstead to move up to the next level and he maintained his leverage to that side. Also, watch McCoy get rolled up on the block Josh Hill is putting on Griffen. Whew, that could've been a disaster.
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7th play - I can agree that this snap wasn't one of Peat's best, but I can't put that minus on him. The entire beginning of the snap against Joseph, he doesn't surrender a yard of ground. Meanwhile, a blitzing Kendricks who's engaged with Armstead, walks our LT laterally over 3 yards and behind Peat. At the beginning of the snap, Peat's back leg is just inside the 10-yard line; the moment right as Armstead's foot stabs in behind Peat's left leg, both of Peat's heels are still inside of the 10. As a result, Peat takes the aforementioned tumble.
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Also on the 2nd play, the reason I think he overshot it a bit was because Murray had a choice to either continue right there or cut it back to the inside and Peat probably felt Murray was going to follow him through so he sealed Kendricks inside knowing that even if Murray did cut it back inside that Kendricks would get caught up in the wash anyway.

And on the 8th play that resulted in a sack, damn that hurt watching not only one but BOTH of our All-Pro tackles get absolutely whooped on the same snap. Hunter ran straight by Ramczyk and Armstead got the first taste from the wrath of Griffen's spin like Peat will on the next drive. We really should've came away with a TD on this free drive. Had Brees hit Kamara in the flat on the last step of his drop and let him try to get to the pylon against Harrison Smith could've been a lot of momentum in our favor instead of just a FG.

Drive 2 – 3:58 left
1st play – Plus – quick pass, but longer pass would have highlighted problems with pass off b/w Peat and McCoy
2nd play – Plus – OZ right, ok
3rd play – Minus* - key 3rd down, quick pressure on spin

1st play - This was a really good draw up by Minnesota by trying to exploit our rookie center and I entirely agree. I think when Peat sees Kendricks showing blitz, he makes sure to get that hand on Stephen and guide him to McCoy so he can pick up Kendricks who's coming full steam ahead and then ducks off behind Stephen right before he gets within Peat's reach. Thankfully Warford was on his toes and likely could've prevented or at least slowed the pressure from the stunt had the route concept been further downfield.
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3rd play - I'm assuming by your use of the asterisk is to note a big minus which I definitely agree on. I think it may have been possibly his worst snap of the game and after that drive I'm certain it was discussed on the sideline with Coach Roushar. However, I'm glad it happened so early in the game because later on right before half time, Griffen came back to that spin move as we tried to drive into FG range and Peat was ready and stuffed it. Now we ultimately ended up missing that FG, but I don't believe Griffen ever came back to it again for the rest of the game that I remember from when I watched the whole tape the other night. Had that spin worked again, I have no doubt that he would've kept going for it until it was stopped considering he went 2-for-2 on it the first two times on two different linemen.
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Q2
Drive 3 – 14:58 left
1st play – Plus - Pass pro, ok
2nd play – Plus - Pass pro, ok
3rd play – Plus - Screen right, ok
4th play – Minus* - key 3rd down, too soft, gives up quick pressure, QB checks down

4th play - As I had this one in my original post, we're also in agreement. This play was the direct result of getting beat by Griffen's spin on the previous drive. Griffen lined up back inside and Peat had that spin move sitting in the back of his head, waiting and sitting on it. Problem is, it never came and Griffen went straight power on him.
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Also on the 2nd play of this drive, he absolutely stonewalled Jaleel Johnson and staggered him back. I had gave that one a big plus.

Drive 4 – 11:30 left
1st play – Plus – run block, ok
2nd play – Plus – Pass pro, ok
3rd play – Minus – slow and poor first step, didn’t disrupt DL at all, TD

3rd play - Entirely agree, there. Even though it ended up being a TD, had it been a quicker DT than Joseph, it easily could've resulted in disaster. Not entirely sure what happened here that he wasn't ready for the snap whether it be he had the wrong snap count, whether McCoy had the wrong snap count and snapped the ball too early, or whether Joseph just got the absolute best jump in his career. At the end of the day, that's easily a minus for Peat. I think he had the right call, he might've just had the wrong count since no one else got off slow and he didn't appear to be apprehensive of which direction he should be going.
View attachment D2BDC4CD-BF9A-48F6-BA8F-2B6CB08B1617.MOV

Drive 5 – 2:49 Left
1st Play – Plus – Pass pro, ok
2nd Play – Plus – Screen right
3rd play – Plus – Pass pro, ok, INT

Also worth noting that even though this was a dud for the offense cumulatively as it ended in an INT, it was a relatively solid drive for Peat considering in 3 plays he had to face 3 different pass rushers with 3 different skill sets (Stephen, then Joseph, then Odenigbo) and beat them all one on one. His rep against Joseph (the screen to Kamara for 4 yards and the play right before the ill-advised INT) was particularly impressive. Joseph got a good push off the line, but Peat stayed with him and drove him back from the line of scrimmage at the 24-yard line, all the way back to nearly the 35-yard line.
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[Belfast Saint]

Thanks for all those clips Alan, painful and slow work I'm sure. It's something I should learn to do as I can use some clips as examples for coaching points. Coaching OL here in Ireland, I can describe what good looks like, and I can show them what bad looks like when we watch our own film (lol), but it's hard sometimes to show them on film what good really looks like with certain plays or techniques.

Not saying I'd be keen to show any film from our game v the vikings as exemplars of good OL play because in general, we had a rough afternoon. OL play requires precision but also great cooperation between linemen. It looks like we were just a little bit off. I think Vikings front 7 had a great deal to with that.

On your points, I understand them and agree with the thinking process. In the end, it comes down to subjective decision as to what is considered enough for a plus. My feeling is that while I gave some judgement calls against Peat, some others I gave him the benefit of the doubt. In the end, this still puts him in the 75-80% range, with some really negative plays.

This is obviously without the full context of having coached the players and having intimate knowledge of techniques used and expectations. I suppose my main point would be that while there are some very clear and definite minuses (5), which you posted in your first post with clips, looking at the film, there were at least as many minus plays which were less egregious or definitive.

In the final analysis, I don't think Peat had a great game. Without having really watched the rest of the OL specifically, I get the sense that no one really had a great game. Would I single Peat out after this game as being the the biggest culprit? I'm not sure, but certainly those two quick pressures on 3rd down in the 1st half really hurt. And it's those types of plays which really stick in people's minds. And that just feeds the anti-Peat feeling which is reaching a crescendo. None of which matters of course, as the team will have their own analysis of Peat and will place a value on him - informed/ uninformed fan opinions don't play into that.

There is a notion here that had we only put Easton in at LG, all the problems would have been fixed. Looking at the film, I'm not sure I agree. One, our OL problems weren't isolated with Peat the only culprit and two, Easton had 5 plays (2 at LG) and I saw at least one really negative play where he missed his man while playing Fat TE where Kamara gets tackled in the backfield. Would he have been better over 56 plays at LG than Peat, possibly but that's far from a definite. And again, Peat wasn't the only issue, there were poor plays across the line including, as you say our two All Pro calibre tackles. I do feel that Easton is good enough to make Peat expendable but is he an absolute upgrade, not at this point.

Anyway, thanks for your post Alan, I enjoyed reading it.