Will Smith- lot of video (1 Viewer)

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I'm asking YOU this question due to your ridiculously detailed posts lately regarding schemes and such. How is RR's scheme similar to the one we used a few years ago? I know we put some 34 fronts up but we used so many looks those years that it'd be hard NOT to use a 34 front at some point.

From what ive gatherd 3G's scheme used 3-4 concepts. Even had a few 3-4 fronts(basic) that we would run. Are the scheme different YES..but it appears that 3G introduced quite a bit of 3-4 quirks. We even ended up drafting guys that fit the 3-4 while he was here.

Being that they come from the same tree they also share some of the basic philosophies..albeit 3G obviously prefers the 4-3 as his base...but all the other fronts are hybrid. Weve ran odd/even fronts

RR prefers a 3-4 for his base front but when we get into nickel/dime u will see the same package substitutions and all.

SOLB in 3G's scheme is basically the same is SOLB in Ryans scheme.

They set the edge, cover, then passrush. Basically in that order as far as responsiblities.

SOLB in the 3-4. Same thing. They don't rush as much as the WOLB. SAme skillset for both but they use them in different order

WOLB rush the passer, set the edge, drop in coverage.


As far as Will Smith some of the things he will be asked to do shouldn't be unfamiliar because of his prior experience.

 

[JimmyB1775]

Ok. My next question. Our line isn't set. Our LB's aren't set but they look more promising than the line seeing as how we have a couple of young playmakers waiting to come on the field. Where does Will Smith fit on the line??? Jordan plays. Bunkley plays. If we only have 3 lineman and Hicks is one of them competing with Will Smith... does he play special teams? Or does he only come in when someone taps on their helmet?

 

[St. Widge]

Ok. My next question. Our line isn't set. Our LB's aren't set but they look more promising than the line seeing as how we have a couple of young playmakers waiting to come on the field. Where does Will Smith fit on the line??? Jordan plays. Bunkley plays. If we only have 3 lineman and Hicks is one of them competing with Will Smith... does he play special teams? Or does he only come in when someone taps on their helmet?

He competes with the other DE's for playing time and you end up with a solid rotation. In addition, Hicks will likely spent some time at NT to give Bunkley some rest and could even end up playing that spot. Having 5 or six guys that can move around on the D-line would be a good thing.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Ok. My next question. Our line isn't set. Our LB's aren't set but they look more promising than the line seeing as how we have a couple of young playmakers waiting to come on the field. Where does Will Smith fit on the line??? Jordan plays. Bunkley plays. If we only have 3 lineman and Hicks is one of them competing with Will Smith... does he play special teams? Or does he only come in when someone taps on their helmet?

Well everyone is assuming that Hicks will play RDE or LDE.

Im pretty much assuming the opposite. I think Hicks will split time with bunkley@NT. HE fits a 3-4 under nose perfectly..but he also fits the RDE and LDE. He can play them all honestly but i see no reason to just start him@ either for the sake of starting him. Id prefer to have him play the same thing he played last year and dominated which is the shaded 1tech and thats what the nose in a 3-4 under front plays. the 3-4 under is the 4-3 with guys in differnt spots. Your asking them to play some of the same techniques...but just lining them up differently.

So if your depth chart looks like so


RDE Cam Jordan/Will Smith
NT Bunkley/Hicks or Hicks/Bunkley
LDE Sharrif Floyd/Sheldon Richardson Tyrunn Walker Tom Johnson

In this scenario Will Smith could still be used in rotation. Im one of the few who believes he can still be productive but should not be playing 90% of our defensive snaps. Reduced snaps could mean fresher legs and better production.


See the 49ers got into trouble because in their 3-4 fronts they rarely substituted....mainly because they lack depth. So u would get guys like Ray Mcdonald, Isaac, and Smith playing a rediculously high # of snaps. They began to wear down as the season got longer.

Our Dline may not be set but we have potentially 5 players that can play the DE spots in a 1 gap 3-4. Now had we been 2gapping it would have minimized us down to less.

When the RDE lines up head up on the Tackle then theres a chance he is 2gapping. Will Smith did that a ton the last few years in some packages in the 4-3 and its essentially the same thing in the 3-4 under if he plays @RDE.

So i guess to sum it up Smith still has some value to this team. Not 10mil value but if we could cut that in half id be interested in keeping him for rotation value and veteran leadership alone.

 

[JimmyB1775]

But then we fall into the "how much should you pay a backup" discussion... right? I like Will Smith. He is mature, he kept his mouth shut last offseason, he stood his ground and he deserves respect on the line. But you don't pay players based on those things.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

But then we fall into the "how much should you pay a backup" discussion... right? I like Will Smith. He is mature, he kept his mouth shut last offseason, he stood his ground and he deserves respect on the line. But you don't pay players based on those things.

True but as I said... if you take his production last year and compare it to a 3-4 DE. He was fine.


50 tackles 6 sacks would be pretty good #'s for a 3-4 DE. Those same #'s look wack for a 4-3 RDE.

So again if he can come close to that same production next year in the 3-4 then id happily take him for 5mil a year. Im assuming he doesnt start but the depth chart could shake out in a # of ways.


In the latest draft i had i have us drafting

Kenny Vaccaro
Leon Mcfadden
William Gholston
David Bass

all players that can play in the 3-4 but if u notice i didn't address the front 7 until later. Mainly because our line is probably our biggest strength right now. Followed by LB's which we could use a FA or two and then our coverage which i think is a weak point.

With that being said if u chose to Start Will Smith@ RDE and Jordan @LDE then Jordan would have Johnson/Walker behind him and Smith would have William Gholston behind him for a year with Bunk/Hicks @ NT

Either way still solid depth and @ a reasonable price.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

He competes with the other DE's for playing time and you end up with a solid rotation. In addition, Hicks will likely spent some time at NT to give Bunkley some rest and could even end up playing that spot. Having 5 or six guys that can move around on the D-line would be a good thing.

This...keeping Will SMith just keeps another option on the table. IT helps that hes familiar with the lockeroom and is a key veteran but u keep himi around for Depth and he could potential be a starter depending on how the draft shakes out.

Either way he benefits us more by staying than leaving.


if he leaves then u HAVE to make Hicks a DE. Which means that now u lack depth@ NT so now NT becomes a priority. Why make something a priority if u don't have to. If your making a transition to a 3-4 like we are doing then u want to have as fewest holes possible U don't go around making holes on ur defense.

Contray to popular belief even if hicks wasn't starting a NT the second guy in that rotation is VERY VERY imporatnt. Bunkley might not be the 325 nose tackle but he can hold his own 2gapping. To make it easier u keep him fresh as possible. You can do that with he and hicks rotating. Theyd be doing the same thing they were asked to do last year in the 4-3 which is play the shaded 1 tech. The middle of our defense was fine for the most part...only when backs got to the edge did we have problems. The 3-4 helps contain that by having ur OLB's flanked a little wider.

 

[bclemms]

Something that is going to get lost in this is the contributions of citysaint. Dude posts videos of players and plays all the time. He's one of the few posters that actually has access to these films and uses it to his advantage. Whether we agree on the topic or not, we can all appreciate what citysaint is doing for the level of discussions here

Something we agree on, CitySaint should be on a SR payroll.

 

[LSSpam]

So I finally saw this. In honesty, only watched the first video, because it confirmed my already held preconceptions. If you really think it's worth it, I'll watch the other two, but this is what I saw and think

Will Smith is not fast. He's not that quick. He's not quick enough to turn the corner on the defensive end, he doesnt have a spin move (he's feet are so slow he shouldn't) and his shoulder dip is pathetic. He's not an effective pass rusher in the 4-3, certainly not on the edge. I don't believe this comes as a surprise to anyone.

However, he's active and effective with his hands, and the few decent plays he had were when he went straight at the OLman and used his strength and hands to push the player. In those cases he actually did a somewhat effective job closing the pocket.

I doubt he can power rush 60-70 snaps a game, and probably why he didn't. He also can't be the primary pass rusher because if it's 3rd and 10 you need someone who can actually beat the guy in front of him, not just narrow the pocket and "bother" the QB.

However the video did seem to confirm my belief that he can be an effective rotation player, especially in a 3-4 lineup.

To me it's a question of cap number and whether he'll steal snaps from a promising player.

 

[LSSpam]

Ugh, I watched the second video. He was pretty awful in the Green Bay game. To be fair, rushing the edge against Aaron Rodger's in the shotgun is clearly not going to be his strong suit, but yeah.

I will say this, vs Rivers in particular, one thing I noticed was how horrible our zone coverage was against seam routes. I can't believe how bad Spags was,

 

[CitySaint]

For me thats the only question, Cap number. Smith is a leader. He is quick off the snap and has a killer rip move where he beats the tackle up the field and then rips inside, he also has a decent bullrush and pushing 290 he can beat the tackle outside although that is something very inconsistent at 290. Judging Smith for what he is, a 4-3 end, can't be used for his future at 3-4 end. The rip and bull rush will be of great use for Smith closer to the inside.

And we have to keep in mind that a great end may average 4 or 5 pressures(sacks, hits, hurries) per game

 

[LSSpam]

For me thats the only question, Cap number. Smith is a leader. He is quick off the snap and has a killer rip move where he beats the tackle up the field and then rips inside, he also has a decent bullrush and pushing 290 he can beat the tackle outside although that is something very inconsistent at 290. Judging Smith for what he is, a 4-3 end, can't be used for his future at 3-4 end. The rip and bull rush will be of great use for Smith closer to the inside.

Yeah he was pretty effective with the rip.

I agree, if you're going to ask him to face-up the OT and then work inside to the B-gap, which is not unusual in the 3-4, he can be at least modestly effective and the tape does show that. This opens things up for whoever you have on the edge there and makes Smith a contributor.

But yes, watching him try to take the outside shoulder of the OT against Aaron Rodgers in the shotgun was...painful.

 

[CitySaint]

Yeah he was pretty effective with the rip.

I agree, if you're going to ask him to face-up the OT and then work inside to the B-gap, which is not unusual in the 3-4, he can be at least modestly effective and the tape does show that. This opens things up for whoever you have on the edge there and makes Smith a contributor.

But yes, watching him try to take the outside shoulder of the OT against Aaron Rodgers in the shotgun was...painful.

Our coverage was horrible and as the game went on it looked as if we had given up coverage wise. The best D-end in the world has no chance, Rodgers was throwing with almost no coverage

Will Smith is well worth a reduced price, but right now he is obscenely overpayed.

 

[Saint Droopy]

Damm... even with video tape evidence the apologists are still out in full force. I thought the video was enough evidence but I guess they're still in search of that "smoking gun". smdh

 

[CitySaint]

I like Smith's ability in the 3-4 to focus attention in the B and C gaps on him, instead of Galette, the only person who could possibly do it better would be Hicks, but Smith would be a monster stunting with Galette if they get their timing right. He and Tez tried stunting multiple times and failed horribly mainly do to timing not athletic ability.