Poll Would you rather...(Another Hill vs. Winston thread and poll) Mod edit (1 Viewer)

[Loose Cannon]

I don't believe anything of the sort. I have no real football experience just a fan. They pay Payton to make that call. Can I ask you a serious question? You post a lot of absolute comments. What is your football background that qualifies you to say Payton is wrong? Please don't respond that Payton is just trying to hoodwink a team into taking Taysom off our hands. That tall tale went down in flames when they gave him $21 Million to hang around.

I don't think Payton is wrong. I think Payton thinks there's a chance that Hill can be an effective QB. I don't believe that he is going to push all of his chips in on Taysom being the future. Not once have we directly heard Sean say "Taysom is the future" - it's all speculation. Hill is going to get a chance to compete for the starting job, but it's not going to be a rigged competition against scrubs. It's going to be against Winston, a rookie, or another qualified candidate.

I choose to follow actions, not words/media hype, and for the third year straight, the Saints have brought in a very, very over-qualified backup (real QBs) to stick between our actual starter and Taysom Hill, our third string QB. If you like to follow offseason hype sound bites and not what's actually happening, that's your perogative.

Can you also explain how an Inaccurate passer completes more than 70 percent of his passes behind a third string front line to receivers he only met a few days ago?

Terrible QBs do this all the time. Last offseason Nathan Peterman threw for a 72%, better than Taysom Hill. Have you ever seen Nathan Peterman play in the regular season?

This whole "he played great in garbage time preseason" chicken that you keep humping is a really bad hill to die on and a waste of credibility.

Taysom may never be a super passing QB but in combination with his running ability he may still be a great QB.

It's unlikely based on his past that he's even an average passing QB. He's also mistake prone and lacks football IQ at the QB position, as shown for his entire five-year college career. He's a one-read and run guy who struggles to go through his progressions. Even when he runs the wildcat/RPO he makes the wrong read about half of the time. He has a lot of the tangibles of guys like Lamar Jackson or Deshaun Watson, but he lacks the football intelligence to do what they do. That (+injuries) is why they were first round picks and he was undrafted.


But the whole point of my post is that you're ragging on people saying "Winston has never proven he can be a QB" about a guy who won a Heisman Trophy whilst going around this board pimping a guy who has shown nothing but that he is a terrible passer his entire career.

 

[Piper Aydair]

I don't think Payton is wrong. I think Payton thinks there's a chance that Hill can be an effective QB. I don't believe that he is going to push all of his chips in on Taysom being the future. Not once have we directly heard Sean say "Taysom is the future" - it's all speculation. Hill is going to get a chance to compete for the starting job, but it's not going to be a rigged competition against scrubs. It's going to be against Winston, a rookie, or another qualified candidate.

I choose to follow actions, not words/media hype, and for the third year straight, the Saints have brought in a very, very over-qualified backup (real QBs) to stick between our actual starter and Taysom Hill, our third string QB. If you like to follow offseason hype sound bites and not what's actually happening, that's your perogative.



Terrible QBs do this all the time. Last offseason Nathan Peterman threw for a 72%, better than Taysom Hill. Have you ever seen Nathan Peterman play in the regular season?

This whole "he played great in garbage time preseason" chicken that you keep humping is a really bad hill to die on and a waste of credibility.



It's unlikely based on his past that he's even an average passing QB. He's also mistake prone and lacks football IQ at the QB position, as shown for his entire five-year college career. He's a one-read and run guy who struggles to go through his progressions. Even when he runs the wildcat/RPO he makes the wrong read about half of the time. He has a lot of the tangibles of guys like Lamar Jackson or Deshaun Watson, but he lacks the football intelligence to do what they do. That (+injuries) is why they were first round picks and he was undrafted.


But the whole point of my post is that you're ragging on people saying "Winston has never proven he can be a QB" about a guy who won a Heisman Trophy whilst going around this board pimping a guy who has shown nothing but that he is a terrible passer his entire career.

I think I asked what the basis for your opinion is. Are just a fan like me or are you involved with football in a capacity that elevates your opinion.

 

[Piper Aydair]

Not once have we directly heard Sean say "Taysom is the future" - it's all speculation. Hill is going to get a chance to compete for the starting job.

Wrong and right.
Wrong. Payton has twice said the future QB is in the building. The only QB around when he made those comments and who is still on the team is Taysom. In addition more than one sports writer has put your words in Payton's mouth.
Right. Taysom will get a chance to prove himself.

I make these predictions

1. if there is a preseason, Tasom will be the QB2 leading the 1st team and the play calling will heavily favor passing (we already know he can run)
2. In the regular season he will get many more snaps. Maybe whole drives and even whole quarters.
3. You will see a lot more passes from Taysom this year.
4. If Drew can't suit up for a game it will be Taysom not Jameis.
5. Taysom's performance as a passer will speak louder that your words or mine

You don't need to respond. I'll let the season be my judge.

 

[jrdbrn]

I voted Hill because of now. Next year if we resign Winston and Brees says he's had enough, then obviously I would change my vote.

 

[jessy]

I am surprised you made it to three pages.

We’re at 5 now.

So either this is one of the worse constructed polls

Thank you.

or the OP is purposely trying o get even the hardest critic to admit that Winston is the better QB.

Wrong. I just wanted to see who the board liked better.

Personally, I like Taysom better. I think he’s an electrifying player who is not only a leader but has the ability to elevate the players around him.

 

[Loose Cannon]

Wrong and right.
Wrong. Payton has twice said the future QB is in the building. The only QB around when he made those comments and who is still on the team is Taysom. In addition more than one sports writer has put your words in Payton's mouth.
Right. Taysom will get a chance to prove himself.

I make these predictions

1. if there is a preseason, Tasom will be the QB2 leading the 1st team and the play calling will heavily favor passing (we already know he can run)
2. In the regular season he will get many more snaps. Maybe whole drives and even whole quarters.
3. You will see a lot more passes from Taysom this year.
4. If Drew can't suit up for a game it will be Taysom not Jameis.
5. Taysom's performance as a passer will speak louder that your words or mine

You don't need to respond. I'll let the season be my judge.

Fair enough.

But nothing that happens in preseason means anything, as you should, but apparently don't, already know.

 

[Piper Aydair]

Fair enough.

But nothing that happens in preseason means anything, as you should, but apparently don't, already know.

I can't agree at all with that statement. Taysom is a Saint precisely because of his preseason play with Green Bay. I just yesterday read Payton's most detailed account yet of how that happened. In that interview, at first he though it was an older veteran by the same name and when he learned it was rookie he ask the staff for all the film they had of him and they spent the night breaking down every one of his preseason plays. Obviously Payton does not agree with your "nothing that happens in preseason means anything" philosophy.

 

[Walter White]

It is a huge leap to think Payton can magically fix any QB's faults. The same people that are adamant that Taysom will never be anyone's QB1 seem to believe Jameis is only one heart to heart with Drew and Payton from a 50% reduction in interceptions.

One of those that voted for Jameis needs to explain why Payton and company can reverse 5 years of bad Quarterbacking in one season of riding a bench (Drew will not get hurt knock on wood). While at the same time they are so absolutely certain that Taysom with 4 years under Drew/Payton and with actual game experience is a lost cause.

Tell me if this sounds familiar ... Then tell me is Jameis changed any in five years as a starter?

WEAKNESSES (and Tampa history)

• Decision making not consistent with his football intelligence. Will throw into impossible windows rather than taking safe throw underneath. Elongated windup and release allows instinctive defenders to close on throws. Was too easily baited into dangerous throws. Struggled with intermediate passing game in 2014, completing 56.8 percent of his passes with FBS-leading 11 interceptions in that range. Still learning nuances of position and how to move and hold defenders with his eyes. Would sleepwalk through first half of many games. Inconsistent footwork and weight transfer caused balls to sail. Prone to emotional outbursts on field. Quality of decision-making drops off substantially when pocket becomes turbulent and he's forced to leave it. Lacks athleticism to extend plays for very long outside of the pocket. Off-the-field character and ability to lead on NFL level are his primary obstacles, according to NFL evaluators. (NFL Combine Evaluation)
• Slow: Former Florida State teammate Ronald Darby correctly summed up Jameis Winston’s official 40-yard dash time of 4.97 seconds Saturday at the Scouting Combine. “Jameis isn’t a track guy,” Darby said.
• Weight and physical condition is like a YoYo
• Sack magnet
• Jameis Winston’s last pass as a Tampa Bay Buccaneer was a pick-six. In overtime in Week 17, a Winston pass on first-and-10 was jumped by Falcons linebacker Deion Jones, who returned it for a walk-off touchdown. The score ended Tampa Bay’s regular season and Winston’s Bucs career in ignominious, appropriate fashion.
• Not Just Interceptions; Winston leads the NFL in interceptions since 2015, but that doesn’t tell the full story of his propensity for turnovers. Over the past five years, he is tied with Kirk Cousins for the lead in fumbles (50) and leads all players in lost fumbles (23).
  Using this simple metric of fumbles and interceptions, let’s see where every quarterback with at least 50 starts ranks since 2015.
  31-40 fumbles + interceptions: Tyrod Taylor
  41-50: Alex Smith
  51-60: Aaron Rodgers
  61-70: Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Case Keenum, Dak Prescott, Ryan Tannehill
  71-80: Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Matt Stafford, Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton
  81-90: Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Russell Wilson
  91-100: Derek Carr, Matt Ryan, Blake Bortles, Eli Manning
  101-110: Kirk Cousins, Philip Rivers
  111-120: None
  121-130: None
  131-140: Jameis Winston

The naive enthusiasm for the fixability of Jameis Winston is as touching as it is unrealistic. Put another way, Jameis has as much chance of overcoming his turnover issues as Taysom does eclipsing Drew's TD record. But miracles happen.

This isn't rocket science.......If you actually watch the games you'd see that Winston has issues with patience in the pocket. That could be a result of bad O-line play or always trying to make the big play. Fumbles are caused from being hit (mostly). No NFL QB will be interception-less the key is reducing the number of INT's. A combination of coaching and good O-line play can achieve that.

I'm a glass half full guy. If you give me a choice between a guy that has been rookie of the year, Heisman winner, 5,000 yard passer, 30+ TD's, but throws a lot of INT's vs a guy that hasn't done anything other than play a gadget role. I'm taking the first guy.

And you bring up the weight issues. Have you seen him lately? He's addressed that. Another interesting fact about Taysom Hill he threw 43 TD's and 31 INT's in his college career. In the NFL he has thrown 0 TD's and 1 INT. Doesn't sound like he has a history of ball security either.

 

[Piper Aydair]

This isn't rocket science.......If you actually watch the games you'd see that Winston has issues with patience in the pocket. That could be a result of bad O-line play or always trying to make the big play. Fumbles are caused from being hit (mostly). No NFL QB will be interception-less the key is reducing the number of INT's. A combination of coaching and good O-line play can achieve that.

I'm a glass half full guy. If you give me a choice between a guy that has been rookie of the year, Heisman winner, 5,000 yard passer, 30+ TD's, but throws a lot of INT's vs a guy that hasn't done anything other than play a gadget role. I'm taking the first guy.

And you bring up the weight issues. Have you seen him lately? He's addressed that. Another interesting fact about Taysom Hill he threw 43 TD's and 31 INT's in his college career. In the NFL he has thrown 0 TD's and 1 INT. Doesn't sound like he has a history of ball security either.

I reiterate. Let's reconvene at the end of the season.

WEAKNESSES (and Tampa history)

• Decision making not consistent with his football intelligence. Will throw into impossible windows rather than taking safe throw underneath. Elongated windup and release allows instinctive defenders to close on throws. Was too easily baited into dangerous throws. Struggled with intermediate passing game in 2014, completing 56.8 percent of his passes with FBS-leading 11 interceptions in that range. Still learning nuances of position and how to move and hold defenders with his eyes. Would sleepwalk through first half of many games. Inconsistent footwork and weight transfer caused balls to sail. Prone to emotional outbursts on field. Quality of decision-making drops off substantially when pocket becomes turbulent and he's forced to leave it. Lacks athleticism to extend plays for very long outside of the pocket. Off-the-field character and ability to lead on NFL level are his primary obstacles, according to NFL evaluators. (NFL Combine Evaluation)
• Slow: Former Florida State teammate Ronald Darby correctly summed up Jameis Winston’s official 40-yard dash time of 4.97 seconds Saturday at the Scouting Combine. “Jameis isn’t a track guy,” Darby said.
• Weight and physical condition is like a YoYo
• Sack magnet
• Jameis Winston’s last pass as a Tampa Bay Buccaneer was a pick-six. In overtime in Week 17, a Winston pass on first-and-10 was jumped by Falcons linebacker Deion Jones, who returned it for a walk-off touchdown. The score ended Tampa Bay’s regular season and Winston’s Bucs career in ignominious, appropriate fashion.
• Not Just Interceptions; Winston leads the NFL in interceptions since 2015, but that doesn’t tell the full story of his propensity for turnovers. Over the past five years, he is tied with Kirk Cousins for the lead in fumbles (50) and leads all players in lost fumbles (23).
  Using this simple metric of fumbles and interceptions, let’s see where every quarterback with at least 50 starts ranks since 2015.
  31-40 fumbles + interceptions: Tyrod Taylor
  41-50: Alex Smith
  51-60: Aaron Rodgers
  61-70: Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Case Keenum, Dak Prescott, Ryan Tannehill
  71-80: Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Matt Stafford, Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton
  81-90: Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Russell Wilson
  91-100: Derek Carr, Matt Ryan, Blake Bortles, Eli Manning
  101-110: Kirk Cousins, Philip Rivers
  111-120: None
  121-130: None
  131-140: Jameis Winston

 

[Walter White]

I reiterate. Let's reconvene at the end of the season.

WEAKNESSES (and Tampa history)

• Decision making not consistent with his football intelligence. Will throw into impossible windows rather than taking safe throw underneath. Elongated windup and release allows instinctive defenders to close on throws. Was too easily baited into dangerous throws. Struggled with intermediate passing game in 2014, completing 56.8 percent of his passes with FBS-leading 11 interceptions in that range. Still learning nuances of position and how to move and hold defenders with his eyes. Would sleepwalk through first half of many games. Inconsistent footwork and weight transfer caused balls to sail. Prone to emotional outbursts on field. Quality of decision-making drops off substantially when pocket becomes turbulent and he's forced to leave it. Lacks athleticism to extend plays for very long outside of the pocket. Off-the-field character and ability to lead on NFL level are his primary obstacles, according to NFL evaluators. (NFL Combine Evaluation)
• Slow: Former Florida State teammate Ronald Darby correctly summed up Jameis Winston’s official 40-yard dash time of 4.97 seconds Saturday at the Scouting Combine. “Jameis isn’t a track guy,” Darby said.
• Weight and physical condition is like a YoYo
• Sack magnet
• Jameis Winston’s last pass as a Tampa Bay Buccaneer was a pick-six. In overtime in Week 17, a Winston pass on first-and-10 was jumped by Falcons linebacker Deion Jones, who returned it for a walk-off touchdown. The score ended Tampa Bay’s regular season and Winston’s Bucs career in ignominious, appropriate fashion.
• Not Just Interceptions; Winston leads the NFL in interceptions since 2015, but that doesn’t tell the full story of his propensity for turnovers. Over the past five years, he is tied with Kirk Cousins for the lead in fumbles (50) and leads all players in lost fumbles (23).
  Using this simple metric of fumbles and interceptions, let’s see where every quarterback with at least 50 starts ranks since 2015.
  31-40 fumbles + interceptions: Tyrod Taylor
  41-50: Alex Smith
  51-60: Aaron Rodgers
  61-70: Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Case Keenum, Dak Prescott, Ryan Tannehill
  71-80: Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Matt Stafford, Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton
  81-90: Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Russell Wilson
  91-100: Derek Carr, Matt Ryan, Blake Bortles, Eli Manning
  101-110: Kirk Cousins, Philip Rivers
  111-120: None
  121-130: None
  131-140: Jameis Winston

You have some great points. Gotta take the good with the bad but I still believe those things can be corrected. Hopefully we don't have to find out until we're defending our title next year if Brees decides to ride off into the sunset.

 

[Loose Cannon]

I can't agree at all with that statement. Taysom is a Saint precisely because of his preseason play with Green Bay. I just yesterday read Payton's most detailed account yet of how that happened. In that interview, at first he though it was an older veteran by the same name and when he learned it was rookie he ask the staff for all the film they had of him and they spent the night breaking down every one of his preseason plays. Obviously Payton does not agree with your "nothing that happens in preseason means anything" philosophy.

So you also believe that Nathan Peterman is a capable NFL quarterback?

Preseason is useless. Watch more football

 

[Loose Cannon]

I reiterate. Let's reconvene at the end of the season.

WEAKNESSES (and Tampa history)

• Decision making not consistent with his football intelligence. Will throw into impossible windows rather than taking safe throw underneath. Elongated windup and release allows instinctive defenders to close on throws. Was too easily baited into dangerous throws. Struggled with intermediate passing game in 2014, completing 56.8 percent of his passes with FBS-leading 11 interceptions in that range. Still learning nuances of position and how to move and hold defenders with his eyes. Would sleepwalk through first half of many games. Inconsistent footwork and weight transfer caused balls to sail. Prone to emotional outbursts on field. Quality of decision-making drops off substantially when pocket becomes turbulent and he's forced to leave it. Lacks athleticism to extend plays for very long outside of the pocket. Off-the-field character and ability to lead on NFL level are his primary obstacles, according to NFL evaluators. (NFL Combine Evaluation)
• Slow: Former Florida State teammate Ronald Darby correctly summed up Jameis Winston’s official 40-yard dash time of 4.97 seconds Saturday at the Scouting Combine. “Jameis isn’t a track guy,” Darby said.
• Weight and physical condition is like a YoYo
• Sack magnet
• Jameis Winston’s last pass as a Tampa Bay Buccaneer was a pick-six. In overtime in Week 17, a Winston pass on first-and-10 was jumped by Falcons linebacker Deion Jones, who returned it for a walk-off touchdown. The score ended Tampa Bay’s regular season and Winston’s Bucs career in ignominious, appropriate fashion.
• Not Just Interceptions; Winston leads the NFL in interceptions since 2015, but that doesn’t tell the full story of his propensity for turnovers. Over the past five years, he is tied with Kirk Cousins for the lead in fumbles (50) and leads all players in lost fumbles (23).
  Using this simple metric of fumbles and interceptions, let’s see where every quarterback with at least 50 starts ranks since 2015.
  31-40 fumbles + interceptions: Tyrod Taylor
  41-50: Alex Smith
  51-60: Aaron Rodgers
  61-70: Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Case Keenum, Dak Prescott, Ryan Tannehill
  71-80: Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Matt Stafford, Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton
  81-90: Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Russell Wilson
  91-100: Derek Carr, Matt Ryan, Blake Bortles, Eli Manning
  101-110: Kirk Cousins, Philip Rivers
  111-120: None
  121-130: None
  131-140: Jameis Winston

So we've established that Winston makes poor decisions with the football. You, being an absolute stalwart of intellectual honesty and critical thinking, then, would have to admit that a player who had a 70% worse TD:INT ratio than Winston, when comparing on a level playing field, is an absolutely terrible quarterback.

Right?

 

[St4ever]

We’re at 5 now.



Thank you.


Wrong. I just wanted to see who the board liked better.

Personally, I like Taysom better. I think he’s an electrifying player who is not only a leader but has the ability to elevate the players around him.

It’s the leader part that will make him a great QB. Players Follow leaders. Winston has never been a great leader.

and just because a player throws for 5,000 yards does not make him a great QB. Yes he did it but how many games did he win? Or actually how many did he lose?

 

[Piper Aydair]

So you also believe that Nathan Peterman is a capable NFL quarterback?

Preseason is useless. Watch more football

Lets think about what you just said. I'll agree that preseason stats are not much use but you did not say the stats are useless, you said the "Preseason is useless." and previously you said "nothing that happens in preseason means anything".

Let's think about that and I'll try to not be a condescending jerk like you. "watch more football", really? How about answering the question about what life experience makes your opinion so hot shot that you can demean other Saints fans that disagree with you?

So, what can a coach learn about a QB from the "Useless" preseason? What skills and characteristics transcend the season?

1. how does a QB move in the pocket
2. where are his eyes looking
3. did he read the defense and choose the best target option
4. is he aware of pressure and adjusting in the pocket
5. footwork
6. throwing form
7. does he telegraph his throws
8. ball placement
9. ball accuracy, speed, spiral and arc
10. ball security
11. timing
12. strength of arm
13. release quickness
14. communication with the teammates
15. reaction of team mated to his leadership
16. does he inspire confidence
17. presence, composure, confidence
18. can he extend pass plays with his legs
19. running ability
20. etc (i'm sure a coach like payton has a much longer list of check boxes he can tick watching a preseason game.

From Taysom's perspective, he is here with a $21,000,000 contract because of a few quarters he played in Green Bay's preseason. Not so useless or meaningless to Taysom, LC.

Watch more preseason football

That was rather condescending of me; you must be a bad influence.

 

[Walter White]

It’s the leader part that will make him a great QB. Players Follow leaders. Winston has never been a great leader.

and just because a player throws for 5,000 yards does not make him a great QB. Yes he did it but how many games did he win? Or actually how many did he lose?

One player alone doesn't win games. If that were the case then Drew Brees would have more than one Super Bowl. Tampa had a horrible O-line, no running game, and no secondary. He must've been a good leader since his former teammates are still going to bat for him. How do we know if Taysom is such a great leader? When has he ever led a team?