The problem of White Supremacy - Spinoff from Buffalo Shooting thread

The problem of White Supremacy - Spinoff from Buffalo Shooting thread

Since the original Buffalo shooting thread has been largely focused on the gun debate/discussion, I feel like there hasn't been enough discussion of the underlying cause in this case. The shooter is 18 years old and apparently was radicalized/indoctrinationated through reading stuff like 4chan and white nationalist sources starting when he was 16. Roughly a quarter of the manifesto he wrote was plagiarized from those sources as well as from previous mass shooters' own manifestos. He views himself as an "eco-fascist, a white supremacist, an antisemite, and a Nazi."

So, while this guy was responsible for the horrific killing of 10 people, it's clear he was influenced by the white nationalist and white supremacist writings available out there. I've personally never read 4chan or any of those writings, so I admit I'm a bit uneducated when it comes to those sources. I have an idea of some of the hatred, grievances and fears of people who read and agree with the stuff, but I don't understand how people come to the conclusion that killing other people is somehow justified.

What can we do as a country and a culture to get away from this culture of violence and hatred? Can the sources of that hatred be stopped?

Speaking for myself as a white man, married to a Korean woman, with 4 adult children, I want to say that the victims of this senseless act didn't deserve to die. I feel awful for their families and wish i could console them. I know there's nothing i can say that will be adequate.

What now? Where do we go from here?

Just a quick thought. I would think to send food and groceries to families in that area because from what I understand the store where the shooting took place is in a "food desert" where people have difficulty accessing typical groceries in their neighborhood aside from that one store which is currently closed due to the shooting. It feels like that could be a first step, by meeting the needs of the neighborhood in the short term.

I hope this sparks some discussion of the root causes of the violence and how we can address it in a meaningful way.

First Time Poster said
The issue with dismissing this as "crazy" Dave is that it is now common to associate these acts of terrorism, by white supremacists, as "crazy" as a way to diminish this threat as a "one-off." The now popular lone-wolf. These aren't acts of isolation. It's a pattern.

This terrorist and supremacist was no more crazy than Hitler was crazy. They speak with clarity, intent, conviction and confidence. He wasn't insane and what he is indoctrinationated into it and preaching is dangerous. It's not crazy, it's commonplace. Eventually, America will have to own its white supremacy problem. But, trying to pass this off as fringe behavior, or shaming it back to irrelevance, those days are done. It has to be confronted as the mainstream behavior it is. White America doesn't like hearing that but yall don't have to live under its oppression constantly, so tough.

For the record, my friend, I know this isn't your position, and I understand the point you are making. But, as always, if I see an opportunity to give perspective, I will.

DaveXA said
That makes sense. I appreciate the perspective as always and value your thoughts.

I guess my tendency is to want the white supremacy worldview to be something that is unacceptable and "crazy" as an apt descriptor. I would say just because it's commonplace doesn't mean it's not crazy. At least that was what I was thinking. It certainly should be dealt with. There certainly is too much of it, particularly in law enforcement.

I do want to be part of the solution to the problem of racism as much as I possibly can, but sometimes I feel like I'm a passenger on this journey.

EGLSShin said
I gotta be honest, reading some of that manifesto, it just seems way too trolly to me, it's a bit too perfect when you think about the racist, neckbeard, edgelord stereotype who has been on the internet a little too long. If you're going to the /pol/ board on 4chan and taking that as the gospel, to the point you act out in real life based on it, you're so far gone that you haven't even been existing in reality for quite some time. That part of 4chan is littered with trolling, edgelord posting(including racist stuff), conspiracy theories. That board is about 20 years old at this point, going back to like 2003.

The feds monitor those boards, they have for years now. People who used to moderate various boards have confirmed as such.

Boy_of_wonder75 said
If you want to do something about it, call it out whenever you see it and ostracize those who espouse the beliefs. Give no quarter to those who even lean that way. Social pressure can work wonders from time to time.

DaveXA said
Pretty much. A few of my family members don't like me for that reason, lol. Ultimately, I don't talk with them much these days.

LAhotsauce said
The KKK (the 4chan of 1865) started off as just trolling. Their outfit was literally made to look like a ghost to go scare black people. No lie.

People carry forward things posted on 4chan in real life all the time. It may not result in 10 people dead. It just results in qualified african americans not getting the bank loan they deserve, or job, or money to start a business.

Eeyore said
And yet they didn't prevent it despite the offender posting dates, times, and locations.

St. Widge said
I mean, the thought did cross my mind that part of the issue is that "some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses", but I didn't necessarily want to open that can of worms and decided to go with the idea that it's a failure not intentional ignorance.

Sailorsaint said
It may have been reluctance more than anything. With all the pressure put on law enforcement lately, what would have been the blow back if they went in early and ended up in a firefight at the guys house?

St. Widge said
I mean, that's their job and it's not really those kinds of things that have lead to law enforcement getting bad publicity lately. It's excessive use of force, biased policing, an us against them attitude toward the public in general, and targeting minorities that has been the issue. And, frankly, the fact that this guy posted what he was doing to do along with when and where, and law enforcement did nothing about it makes it look even more suspect in term so of biased policing and targeting minorities. I doubt many would have an issue if they went in to arrest this guy and it resulted in a firefight after people saw what he posted on 4Chan. These are the things we need Police for and this is clear probably cause with exigent circumstances. Yet, they did nothing either because they somehow did not know about it or because they didn't care.

Semper said
The problem is people like this animal in Buffalo don’t care. Insurance or confiscation wouldn’t have changed his mind. The guns are secondary imo. We need to figure out people. You can’t legislate evil.

guidomerkinsrules said
This is what First Time was talking about- the ‘animal’ or live wolf stuff just doesn’t fly
This dude is cultivated and the violent expression of theories held by a significant chunk of the population and broadcast on a major news channel
Trying to discuss him as aberrant from his group ultimately just allows this stuff to continue

UncleTrvlingJim said
I will concede the point in the instance we're talking here, I think the more prevalent issue is why the person decided to kill in the first place and not the method he chose.

First Time Poster said
I, mean, let's keep it 100. Even this discussion of "gun ownership" and "gun regulation" is disingenuous. We aren't discussing that with integrity. Because we are talking about WHITE gun ownership and regulation of WHITE gun owners. Those are whose rights are being feverishly debated. Not only does America not care about Black gun ownership but, since it's foundation, has codified disarmament of black gun ownership into law. Apple pie.

I'm not trying to be that dude and pupu on the 2nd amendment debate. It's an important one. Most def. But for what happened in Buffalo? If that's the first thing, the predominant thing to be discussed? Even the gun debate suffers from the sickness of white supremacy. How easily he was able to purchase a gun? Troubling. How easily he was indoctrinationated into white supremacy? More so.

And, yes, this isn't fringe. That's the lie we have to stop telling.

DaveXA said
While I 100% agree with you, wasn't this already addressed earlier in the thread? I understand more needs to be done to address this but I'm wondering what you're proposing we do here to address the indoctrination issue? How do we get our arms around that discussion? I'm more than willing to have the discussion. I can’t speak for others here though.

Bill said
The biggest problem on this subject is the lack of respect for life. When life means nothing to someone, killing another person just seems like the best way to go about your business.

Guns do indeed make it easier to end a life, but it won’t stop the attitude of those who choose to kill even if the death is a suicide. However, as many bumper stickers inform us, guns aren’t going away. But neither can we stop some people from wanting to end a life. This simply means that humans can’t fix the problem. Hearts would have to change.

UncleTrvlingJim said
I think the issue is we really aren't discussing it. I started to acknowledge that earlier by saying that they "why" this guy decided to kill is more pressing than "how", but then let myself get distracted again.

While it's more pressing, it's also more difficult to unpack. @First Time Poster makes a good start, but we really aren't picking up with it. Even now, I'm not really sure how to move the discussion forward.

There's a couple of dimensions to the problem, the explicit manifestation of racism and white supremacy with this shooting. And the implicit racism and white supremacy baked into assumptions, laws and cultural norms that have sort of permeated in our society over 300 years.

It's extremely difficult because it's nearly impossible to have a frank discussion about this sort of thing without getting defensive.

DaveXA said
That makes sense. I think we have to get over our insecurities and tear the bandaid off. But easier said than done. Maybe a separate thread devoted solely to that could sharpen our focus on that so we aren't distracted with the gun debate? I'm willing to start the thread if that's warranted.

UncleTrvlingJim said
I have to disappear for a bit, but I want to go back to the subject that @First Time Poster brought up.

I sense a tremendous amount of fear, in all communities, including white communities, that they will be hurt in a real ways if they become the minority (or are already a minority). Which to me acknowledges that we don't have strong enough rules, procedures and norms to ensure people are not being influenced by biases. So the solution is to strengthen those things.

guidomerkinsrules said
it signals a fear of the reverse golden rule - 'they will do unto me, what i did unto them'
and that's telling