Rebuilding strategy, forty-niners or saints?

[St. Widge]

If they are a mediocre team with two playoff berth and a double digit win season in the last three years then what does that make us?

Worse than mediocre. But it's not the plan of not tanking that is the issue. It's the poor drafting an choosing to spend $30 to $40 million AAV on a mediocre QB. That and hiring a terrible HC and keeping him two years too long.

 

[WhoDat?DrewDat]

Sure, but for every JD 5 there is a Jalen Hurts, Lamar Jackson, or Jordan Love that falls in the draft to a spot where you could take him even if you do have a mediocre record. And I mention those 3 because the Saints could have/should have drafted all 3 even when they were having double digit win seasons.

IMO these guys are the exception to the rule. Most franchise QBs are top 10 picks. Again this shows our FO is lackluster at talent evaluation because we traded up for Davenport over Lamar.

If we had a competent evaluation team I would feel better about landing our QB later in the rounds.

The Saints problem isn't that they have never been in position to draft a franchise QB to replace Brees, it's that they have refused to take those shots for the last 40 plus years and in particular in the last 10 or so years.

Looking at you Mickey.

 

[ilvdsnts]

Well the 49ers are about to throw a lot of money at a QB who is not worth a lot of money. The Saints already threw a lot of money at a QB who is not worth a lot of money. But at least we are closer to the end of that bad decision.

Bad money decisions at QB take a while to recover from. So my bet is on the Saints rebounding faster for that reason.

I would say the Saints threw mid-level money at a mid-level QB.

 

[St. Widge]

IMO these guys are the exception to the rule. Most franchise QBs are top 10 picks. Again this shows our FO is lackluster at talent evaluation because we traded up for Davenport over Lamar.

If we had a competent evaluation team I would feel better about landing our QB later in the rounds.

Looking at you Mickey.

They are exceptions, but the exceptions happen fairly often. Even Rodgers fell to pick #24. The Saints could have drafted him but took Jamal Brown at #13. Dak was a 3rd or 4th round pick. Brees was a second round pick.

Mickey certainly takes the lion's share of the blame for not drafting QBs, but part of it I'm sure was that while Payton was here he always wanted to improve other areas of the team for a shot at another SB rather than take a developmental QB. Then the year Payton ID'd Mahomes, he told Reid how good he was and KC traded ahead of us instead of us trading up to get him. So, some of the blame falls on Payton, but that's Loomis' biggest flaw, he won't tell his HCs no and he doesn't force them to use draft picks for the future of the team beyond that particular HC.

Word from Underhill is that Ireland is actually very good at evaluating QBs. Apparently he has always pretty much so been right on with his evaluation of the QBs in the draft, especially the upper level guys, but the Saints just don't draft them. And, yes, that's on Loomis.

 

[Elvis]

I certainly agree that there is room to do it either way and valid upside and downside to both. The thing that I dislike the most about what the 49ers are doing is they are betting on a big contract for a mediocre QB much like the Saints did with Carr. The difference is that the Saints kept the base of the roster and then tried to build around Carr, which isn't working so far but it has a better shot than what the 49ers are doing IMO. It just seems it is going to be more difficult to do for the 49ers when they have to build from the bottom with the same issues with paying big money for a mediocre QB.

As far as the Saints with Johnson and Young, I'm not a huge fan of bringing back Johnson, but only really because I think it's a year too long and a million or so AAV too high for Johnson. Although, if you look at the contract, it looks like it's really a 2 years deal with an out for the Saints before the third year.

As far as Young, I think that's the price they had to pay for missing on Davenport, Turner, and Foskey. Void years or not, they had not choice but to sign a relatively expensive DE in free agency and the void years, age, and upside made Young a better option than others. The deal is a year too long and maybe a little too high on AAV, but that's the price they had to pay for bad drafting at the Edge position.

Which brings me to what I think is the bottom line here. You can choose either option but both fail or succeed based on how well you draft.

The 49ers draft well and get a lot of comp picks. They have 11 selection this year. They let guys go and reload through the draft.

 

[St. Widge]

The 49ers draft well and get a lot of comp picks. They have 11 selection this year. They let guys go and reload through the draft.

No doubt, but the margin of error is really small when you have to rebuild through the draft every 4 years while paying $40 plus million AAV for a mediocre QB. they have managed it so far without having to pay that mediocre QB a big contract which allowed them to supplement talent with free agency and to give contracts to good players. That gets much harder when you are paying that much for a mediocre QB. It's the major reason i didn't want to keep Carr.

 

[solarbear88]

49ers have drafted terrible the last few years. It will take some time to fix those holes.

By signing 2 of our worst players to contracts, Johnson and Young, and letting 2 productive guys go, Adebo and MVS, I have to assume we are aiming for the No.1 pick in the draft. Nothing else makes sense.

 

[SigFreudianSlip]

They are exceptions, but the exceptions happen fairly often. Even Rodgers fell to pick #24. The Saints could have drafted him but took Jamal Brown at #13. Dak was a 3rd or 4th round pick. Brees was a second round pick.

Mickey certainly takes the lion's share of the blame for not drafting QBs, but part of it I'm sure was that while Payton was here he always wanted to improve other areas of the team for a shot at another SB rather than take a developmental QB. Then the year Payton ID'd Mahomes, he told Reid how good he was and KC traded ahead of us instead of us trading up to get him. So, some of the blame falls on Payton, but that's Loomis' biggest flaw, he won't tell his HCs no and he doesn't force them to use draft picks for the future of the team beyond that particular HC.

Word from Underhill is that Ireland is actually very good at evaluating QBs. Apparently he has always pretty much so been right on with his evaluation of the QBs in the draft, especially the upper level guys, but the Saints just don't draft them. And, yes, that's on Loomis.

That last part intrigues me. Have we maybe heard which QB Jeff likes most this draft???

 

[St. Widge]

That last part intrigues me. Have we maybe heard which QB Jeff likes most this draft???

Underhill said they like Ward and that they talked to the Titans about trading up but the price is too high. They also "like" Sanders, but they like him better in the 2nd or late first. Doesn't sound like they would take Sanders at #9, but I guess that could change.

 

[SigFreudianSlip]

Underhill said they like Ward and that they talked to the Titans about trading up but the price is too high. They also "like" Sanders, but they like him better in the 2nd or late first. Doesn't sound like they would take Sanders at #9, but I guess that could change.

Sorry, I do remember you stating this earlier. I had forgotten. Too much age and too many concussions lol.

Thank you for repeating. I sure would LOVE LOVE LOVE them to trade up and get Ward! Go for the gusto, not smart, I know.

Next to the team winning the Super Bowl in my lifetime (check) I’d love to see the team draft a QB high before I leave this big old rock.

 

[Saint of Killers]

I agree with all of this.

The Niners, at their core, are a year removed from a Super Bowl appearance - so conventional wisdom implies that they are in a much better position to rebound from a significant rebuild.

The Saints are definitely overpaying for some aging player providing diminished returns, but they were on the hook for most of them anyway, so why not just shift the burden created by the convoluted cap management system and see what you get from them as you try and retool via the draft and mid-tier free agency?

Because it's exactly what's got us into this mess in the first place. Kicking the can down the road, losing our young talented players and instead being stuck with our overpriced and over the hill vets. Mickey Loomis is the worst GM in the league and the mental gymnastics this fanbase does every off-season to convince themselves things are looking up, is truly impressive.

Here's to another 5-7 win year! Who Dat?

 

[DSnfla]

LOL Cam was just a stop gap for them he was never going to be their serious QB of the future.

They tried Mac who ended up failing and back to square one and tanked for Maye/whoever they pick at 4. They cleared their cap space out and where pretty active during FA.

Two completely different strategies it'll be interesting to see how it works out for both teams.

I truly think you have the definition of Tanking wrong. so I'll post this


Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams.[1]

Notice the word INTENTIONALLY. Most of these teams you say are tanking are not intentionally trying to lose

 

[dutar76]

Pick up a guard in FA and a vetran X and/or a stating caliber CB, then get in the draft and trade back a couple times and hit on a late first rounder like we did with Ram and Cam.
Pick up a couple bosses in rounds 2 like MT and McCoy, then steal two first round talents in the 3rd round like we did with AK and Trey Henderson. Find a guy in the 4th with
the talent level of CGJ, Onyemata, or Anzalone, then shock the universe in the late rounds and find a gem like Colston. Better yet... find a Purdy.

Piece of cake. I wanna be GM. Mostly for the money, but it seems fun and easy.

 

[syeager]

Pick up a guard in FA and a vetran X and/or a stating caliber CB, then get in the draft and trade back a couple times and hit on a late first rounder like we did with Ram and Cam.
Pick up a couple bosses in rounds 2 like MT and McCoy, then steal two first round talents in the 3rd round like we did with AK and Trey Henderson. Find a guy in the 4th with
the talent level of CGJ, Onyemata, or Anzalone, then shock the universe in the late rounds and find a gem like Colston. Better yet... find a Purdy.

Piece of cake. I wanna be GM. Mostly for the money, but it seems fun and easy.

Yea me too, but I would tell the coaches, "Do what you need to do. I will back you." Then tell Khai Harley. "If we need money, figure it out." Last, tell Mrs. Benson, " Don't worry, it's under control." Then, go play golf.....lol