Iraq, Vietnam and public perception (1 Viewer)

[geoffspins]

I have a simple question - Is America as divided over the war in Iraq as it was over the war in Vietnam?

As far as the question goes I'm not interested in Kent State, protests at UC Berkley or the Democratic Convention in Chicago etc.; it's rather how have your personal relationships been affected, if at all, with your neighbors, kids' teachers, colleagues and so forth.

 

[Saintman2884]

not as much, geoff, what you had in Vietnam was the draft and the civil Rights movement going on in the South where you had race riots almost happening all the time.

Yeah you could say it isnt fun or making good progress, but it isnt like Vietnam yet or that scale. Bush knows full well not to at least reinstute the draft.

that was the problem with the Vietnam War.. personally it hasnt affected me that much. I mean I am the type of guy that lets people say their peace and have their say so, I have a big stance on free speech anyway, so no it doesnt affect me that bad.

I may get into an argument here on Sr.com or in my own life sometimes, but not to the point of me hating them for saying their peace.
Thats counterproductive and not wise IMHO

 

[RebSaint]

I have a simple question - Is America as divided over the war in Iraq as it was over the war in Vietnam?

As far as the question goes I'm not interested in Kent State, protests at UC Berkley or the Democratic Convention in Chicago etc.; it's rather how have your personal relationships been affected, if at all, with your neighbors, kids' teachers, colleagues and so forth.

There are plenty of parallels to Vietnam from a military/foreign policy perspective, how it continues to be sold (endless military victories, and supposed "progress" with a continuation of the war, etc.), the civil war, nation-building operation, etc. But the big difference on the homefront from my perspective which makes it unlike Vietnam is 1. the draft and 2. what other issues as 2884 pointed out--were going on at the time.

 

[Doobsdemons]

Those that want to see the similarities will. Those that don't, will not. Look for the usual suspects to make their obvious answers. TPS, Reb, Blackadder,et al, will see it.Saintman Dads, and the like will say no comparison. It would be nice, however, if someone surprises with their answer. I was really too young to know much about Vietnam, being 8 when we left. This war, however, seems, on the surface, to be fought the same way. That is, from the White House and not on the field. I am not against the war, I just disagree with the way it is being fought. Like a police action. Like Korea and Vietnam. Of course, I am not there, not seeing the day to days, so this is just my weakly informed opinion.

 

[DadsDream]

There's no comparison. They're exact opposites in fact.

Reb called it correctly - the draft was a huge issue.

Back then, the National Guard was viewed as a dodge by Hawks and a sellout to The Man by Doves. To Hawks, real patriots signed up for active duty service. To Doves, real people of conscious went to Canada rather than serve in any way.

Today, thanks to mission changes and realignments in the 1970s and 1980s, the National Guard is on the frontlines, with entire units rotating to Iraq for a year at a time.

And that's another huge difference...Johnson's policy of individual tours of duty was a disaster for unit cohesion and Pentagon planners vowed that would never happen again. So, for Iraq we have unit rotations.

Overall, the impact of Iraq has far less emotional impact. During high school in the Vietnam era, you could count the boys in your class and know with certainty that some would be drafted and some would die in Southeast Asia.

 

[FrenchieATX]

not as much, geoff, what you had in Vietnam was the draft and the civil Rights movement going on in the South where you had race riots almost happening all the time.

Yeah you could say it isnt fun or making good progress, but it isnt like Vietnam yet or that scale. Bush knows full well not to at least reinstute the draft.

that was the problem with the Vietnam War.. personally it hasnt affected me that much. I mean I am the type of guy that lets people say their peace and have their say so, I have a big stance on free speech anyway, so no it doesnt affect me that bad.

I may get into an argument here on Sr.com or in my own life sometimes, but not to the point of me hating them for saying their peace.
Thats counterproductive and not wise IMHO

I'd also add that the numbers of dead are much lower on our side -- we'll not know about the enemy killed because unlike Vietnam, we're not allowed to know (officially). Even killing the same number of enemy, we'd likely lose quite a few less because of advances in technology.

So, while those returned with severe injuries may be higher, the death/casualty count is lower and that's the number Americans look at. Were it to rise dramatically you'd see more serious divisiveness.

 

[RebSaint]

There's no comparison. They're exact opposites in fact.

Reb called it correctly - the draft was a huge issue.

Back then, the National Guard was viewed as a dodge by Hawks and a sellout to The Man by Doves. To Hawks, real patriots signed up for active duty service. To Doves, real people of conscious went to Canada rather than serve in any way.

Today, thanks to mission changes and realignments in the 1970s and 1980s, the National Guard is on the frontlines, with entire units rotating to Iraq for a year at a time.

And that's another huge difference...Johnson's policy of individual tours of duty was a disaster for unit cohesion and Pentagon planners vowed that would never happen again. So, for Iraq we have unit rotations.

Overall, the impact of Iraq has far less emotional impact. During high school in the Vietnam era, you could count the boys in your class and know with certainty that some would be drafted and some would die in Southeast Asia.

I didn't quite say it was "just the opposite." I think it bears no resemblency on the war's impact on the domestic front--there's plenty of parallels as Iraq being an abject failure from a military/foreign policy perspective. So no, there are valid comparisions, depending on the context. From a military foreign policy context--lots of parallels. From a domestic/homefront perspective--no real comparision. I think it's important to make this distinction.

But the draft and the casualty rates in Vietnam, along with the other things going on at the time makes it a weak comparsion. HOWEVER, from a military and foreign policy perspective, there are striking parallels on many levels, namely, the open-ended commitment, nation-building efforts, and how the war is sold through an endless parade of "turning points" and calls for "more patience" etc.

There is one domestic comparision though--the war is incredibly unpopular with most of the American people--and there's really no end in sight.

 

[blackadder]

I have a simple question - Is America as divided over the war in Iraq as it was over the war in Vietnam?

As far as the question goes I'm not interested in Kent State, protests at UC Berkley or the Democratic Convention in Chicago etc.; it's rather how have your personal relationships been affected, if at all, with your neighbors, kids' teachers, colleagues and so forth.

America is quite divided if you talk to people about their opinion of the war.

The polls say a clear overall majority believe it was a mistake and that it is time to go home.

But the process of political apathy has advanced much further since the 1960s and the practical difference between the two political parties has narrowed. People can't be bothered to do anything about it in the first instance and even if they were angry enough to mobilize there is really no outlet for the public to press its wishes: The Democrats were elected to end this war. They rolled over completely. Both major parties ultimately answer to the same masters.

Additionally, since we have gone to an all volunteer army, the war does not directly affect most Americans, and most importantly does not affect college age kids who have not volunteered, so you are not likely to see the intensive street protests. We just have to sit and take it.

The direct impact on American households will only be felt gradually and many may not be capable of linking the impact on their future to the huge sums of money burned up in Iraq, or to some future crisis that evolves out of this war.

Cheers!

I'm off the mall -- there's a sale on Crocs!

 

[DadsDream]

Yes, Reb, I was answering within the context of the original post.

My high school campus, 1972...a large group of crying girls and stone-faced boys have gathered under a small oak tree. The latest draft lottery numbers are in. The school has already lost three boys in Vietnam.

"Oh, God no! Jimmy! Tommy!"

"It's gonna be OK."

"No it's not! No it's not!"

"Don't go. I wouldn't."

"We have to put a stop to this!"

The annual high school Talent Show contest is won by a girl who sings "Where Have All the Flowers Gone." She finished the song by taking off her MIA bracelet, reading off the name and date missing and tearfully sobbing, "I've worn this bracelet for three years. They've finally found his body. He's coming home." She placed it on a spotlighted stool and walked offstage, leaving the audience stunned.

We have nothing like this going on now.

 

[inetnawlins]

Yes, it is as divisive.

It has caused large arguments within my extended family at gatherings. The truth is many people choose not to talk about it. And those that support the war don't want to hear anything that doesn't gibe with their world view and opinion of W.

This country is very divided.

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Yes, Reb, I was answering within the context of the original post.

My high school campus, 1972...a large group of crying girls and stone-faced boys have gathered under a small oak tree. The latest draft lottery numbers are in. The school has already lost three boys in Vietnam.

"Oh, God no! Jimmy! Tommy!"

"It's gonna be OK."

"No it's not! No it's not!"

"Don't go. I wouldn't."

"We have to put a stop to this!"

The annual high school Talent Show contest is won by a girl who sings "Where Have All the Flowers Gone." She finished the song by taking off her MIA bracelet, reading off the name and date missing and tearfully sobbing, "I've worn this bracelet for three years. They've finally found his body. He's coming home." She placed it on a spotlighted stool and walked offstage, leaving the audience stunned.

We have nothing like this going on now.

- I see what you're saying, Dads, but don't you think the best comparison would be Iraq 2007 vs. Vietnam 1967 or 68?? I wasn't around back then, but I would guess that this is how it felt in the early stages of Vietnam and that- if we continue on Bush's plan of "no end in sight"- then Iraq circa 2010 or 2011 might more closely resemble the Vietnam 1972 you experienced... Let's save this thread and review in another 3 or 4 yrs to see what's up. Of course, in all likelihood, a member of another party will capture the White House in the meantime and end the charade, but there are no guarantees.

 

[DadsDream]

LOL. You act like I wasn't around for 1967 - 68. I was. My classmates had older brothers getting drafted, too. My brother-in-law was in Vietnam and my sister was sitting at home with two kids, scared to death.

In 1972, I was in high school and about to be issued a draft card.

In 1967 - 68, I was in middle school and less aware of national events.

Still, it was hard to miss Walter Cronkite with the nightly bodycount and 90% of America watched Walter Cronkite, every night.

So, there are a lot of factors to consider which are not readily evident to those who didn't live through it.

 

[geauxboy]

So, if we agree that the draft had/has a big impact between the two conflicts on the domestic front, would that not also stand to reason the lack of citizen participation?

I was born in 71, so there's really nothing I can provide about Vietnam. For good or bad, the people took to the streets and voiced their opinions on a much grander and more frequent scale than we see today. Is that a fair assessment? Leave the civil rights option out.

Maybe our detachment in knowing that us civies won't be called into duty has given the civies a much further detachment from the whole impact that was felt in Vietnam. I, for one, feel no threat, but I am sure those before/during Vietnam were prime for the pickin and weren't smiling.

The impact had to have been more intense, personal and threatening in many ways.

Overall, I really don't find too much difference between the two, except how hard it actually hit home.

 

[DadsDream]

50,000+ dead vs 3,000+ dead...yeah, that'll tend to actually hit home.

My sister took some comfort in knowing that my brother-in-law was supposedly safe in Vietnam, because he was in U.S. Army hospital administration in Da Nang.

After Tet, she got a phone call and he assured her all was fine and the fighting never got close to him.

It would be ten years before I accidently blew his cover story. Going through the family photos with my sister, I came across a picture of her husband recieving an award in Vietnam.

"That," I said, looking closely, "is a Silver Star Medal and commendation."

"Is it important?" my sister asked.

"It's only given for conspicuous gallantry under fire," I answered and instantly regretted saying that.

She turned white as a sheet. They had a lot to talk about after that.

 

[BullDawg]

Today, thanks to mission changes and realignments in the 1970s and 1980s, the National Guard is on the frontlines, with entire units rotating to Iraq for a year at a time.

And that's another huge difference...Johnson's policy of individual tours of duty was a disaster for unit cohesion and Pentagon planners vowed that would never happen again. So, for Iraq we have unit rotations.

Amazingly the Air Force, utilizing the AEF concept that does not normally deploy entire units...and in fact does all it can to avoid deploying entire units...is touted as a better model since most individuals are only deployed for 120 days at a stretch. Pieces and parts come from Active Duty, Guard, and Reserve which marry up into a deployed unit in the AOR with staggered rotations. Using this model, it isn't out of the norm at all to have members of the same unit deployed to numerous locations supporting different missions. Somehow, it works for the Air Force whereas it doesn't seem to work for the Army.:dunno: