Sen. Kerry says he'll be ready for the Swiftboaters next time (1 Viewer)

[DadsDream]

>>When he testified to the Senate back in the 70s, my father called him something like a back-stabbing, long-haired, lying, two-faced, Massachusetts slime ball.

Hot Damn!!!!

But the truth is, those Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth were equally shady, and no doubt, your dad holds them in high esteem, right?

I'm not sure what his opinion is now...he's been dead for over a decade. :dunno:

So many of them were connected to political b.s. and specifically the Repubilcan Party that they should have been called the frauds many of them were. I eventually got a copy of the flowchart, and it was politically indicting regardless of whether or not any of their allegations were true. The Rightwing slime machine attacked hard during the 2004 and 2006 election cycle hating on gays, and finding all the flags and Bibles they could handle even while desecrating the spirit of both of them. Sadly, the swift boat veterans attack on Senator Kerry, IMHO, was what put doubt over the edge in the minds of many people. I hadn't voted for a Democrat for President since 1988, but come on. Anyone pulling the lever a second time for President Bush, well heh, that's on you. Feel proud. You are a God Fearing Great American.

TPS

For some reason, people want to blame all of Kerry's problems on the right-wing slime machine.

They totally gloss over or omit the simple fact that Kerry ranked just above Jane Fonda in the opinions of many Vietnam Era folks and among serving military folks and veterans in particular.

 

[philipkw]

For some reason, people want to blame all of Kerry's problems on the right-wing slime machine.

They totally gloss over or omit the simple fact that Kerry ranked just above Jane Fonda in the opinions of many Vietnam Era folks and among serving military folks and veterans in particular.

I certainly wouldn't blame all of Kerry's problems on the VRWC, but the Swift Boaters hurt him. Or rather a lack of sufficient response hurt him. That along with a less than warm personality was his doom. Well, that and maybe some voting irregularities in Ohio.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I certainly wouldn't blame all of Kerry's problems on the VRWC, but the Swift Boaters hurt him. Or rather a lack of sufficient response hurt him. That along with a less than warm personality was his doom. Well, that and maybe some voting irregularities in Ohio.

I'd say Gay Marriage Amendment in Ohio had more to do with it than irregularities. The cheating on both tends to balance itself out (I'm sure lots of illegals voted in Ohio too) but Rove has admitted to using the Gay Marriage Amendments to drive turnout in contested areas in 2002 and 2004, Ohio being one in 2004.

 

[philipkw]

I'd say Gay Marriage Amendment in Ohio had more to do with it than irregularities. The cheating on both tends to balance itself out (I'm sure lots of illegals voted in Ohio too) but Rove has admitted to using the Gay Marriage Amendments to drive turnout in contested areas in 2002 and 2004, Ohio being one in 2004.

Oh, I was mainly taking a swipe and wasn't being totally serious on that point. I considered putting a smiley but decided not to. I suppose I should have. Anyhoo, I agree that there are probably shenanigans on both sides. We seem to be in a period in time when the GOP is more organized with their sleaze/corruption in elections. I would think that at some point the pendulum will swing.

 

[RebSaint]

They totally gloss over or omit the simple fact that Kerry ranked just above Jane Fonda in the opinions of many Vietnam Era folks and among serving military folks and veterans in particular.

Which really had zip to do with any of the essential issues in that 2004 campaign. The Swift Boat Crap was typical uber-patriotic chest beating political rhetoric which has, in my opinion, become worthless dribble which doesn't do much to address military or foreign policy issues.

 

[TPS]

>>For some reason, people want to blame all of Kerry's problems on the right-wing slime machine.

Not all of them, but it does play a fairly large part.

>>They totally gloss over or omit the simple fact that Kerry ranked just above Jane Fonda in the opinions of many Vietnam Era folks and among serving military folks and veterans in particular.

I completely understand that. In my mind or the way I see it, he took positions favorable to the anti-war crowd on war atrocities at face value which he didn't personally witness. Probably some of it was opportunism and some of it was just repeating hearsay that you know was true. I learned my lesson during Hurricane Katrina as we've discussed in the past. All those childrapists beheading their victims and cannibals going wild at the Convention Center just made for some crazy times. My aunt who sat there for 5 days believes it all and swears it was going on right in front of her. Who am I to say she's completely full of **** even though I know better. She swears it's all true. When you have a 78 year old white lady sitting amidst a bunch of elderly black and white people watching drunken hooligans (also many drugged up from raiding pharmacies) fighting in the street and acting fools, then I guess you might believe anything. Her deal was that she refused to eat or drink for 5 days because she feared being raped if she had to go to the bathroom behind a building.

So yeah, in retrospect, I'd say Senator Kerry shouldn't have been relaying information that he didn't have on good authority. But then again, that standard should also apply to the L.A. Times, Wall Street Journal, Limbaugh program, CNN, Fox, etc.

Who knows?

TPS

 

[DadsDream]

Which really had zip to do with any of the essential issues in that 2004 campaign. The Swift Boat Crap was typical uber-patriotic chest beating political rhetoric which has, in my opinion, become worthless dribble which doesn't do much to address military or foreign policy issues.

Your response is insensitive to those of us of my generation which already had a fully-formed opinion about John Kerry long before the 2004 campaign. For us, no Swift Boating was required. He was and is pond scum.

 

[Saint Mike]

That's the first thing that came to my mind.

 

[TPS]

>>Your response is insensitive to those of us of my generation which already had a fully-formed opinion about John Kerry long before the 2004 campaign. For us, no Swift Boating was required. He was and is pond scum.

Well many of us who came just after that generation had the same opinion on the M.I.D. and the entire b.s. ozzie/harriet value system that was a television facade in the face of the real world. The people won, and I think some of you military types just can't get over that fact.

Moritorium Day, October 15, 1969 is a day that will live on through history as the day the people stood up to fascists in the White House, in the military and in our own national guard who decided their values were > American values. And for that, they are and always will be pond scum. At least Senator Kerry didn't turn his guns on Americans, did he?

TPS

 

[RebSaint]

Your response is insensitive to those of us of my generation which already had a fully-formed opinion about John Kerry long before the 2004 campaign. For us, no Swift Boating was required. He was and is pond scum.

Your problem is that you view the military and those who served as monolithic and having all the same opinions. I think it's a projection you make to other veterans which actually is indicative of what you think.

I completely disagree. You think he's pond scum. I really don't think, probably much to your chagrin, that there was a voting bloc known as Vietnam War Veterans. They didn't vote in a bloc--the swift boat crap was not just directed at Vietnam War Vets.

So really, there is no "us" because plenty of Vietnam War vets voted for Kerry. Further, it's I think insulting to claim that all that Vietnam War Vets would be duped by a cheap political stunt to sway their vote independent of examining the issues.



Your post assumes that all, or even most Vietnam War vets hated Kerry even before the Swift Boat stuff came along, further it assumes that Vietnam War vets only examined the 2004 campaing only through the lens of what went on in the past rather than the real issues on the table.

So no, I think you're completely off-base here.

 

[TPS]

>>I completely disagree. You think he's pond scum. I really don't think, probably much to your chagrin, that there was a voting bloc known as Vietnam War Veterans. They didn't vote in a bloc--the swift boat crap was not just directed at Vietnam War Vets.

You're right in the context of voters in 2004. The smear machine needed a chink in the armor. They knew we had a substandard president by historical measurements, and they knew President Bush's somewhat dubious military record would stand in sharp contrast to Senator Kerry who actually did go to Vietnam and served in a combat capacity. What they needed to do was to make his record appear to be completely baseless and outright fraudulent. They bandied about the purple hearts as if they were completely phony injuries (made 2 of them out to be self-inflicted fingernail scratches) and got a bunch of Republican insiders to claim that they were on another boat just up the creek and didn't recall things the way the Senator said they went. Then there was the guy who he rescued who stood up and said he did. Now he may also have been a political plant, this I don't know. But they created the doubt and chinked the armor. Mr. Rove was a master at slimeball politics and just about singlehandedly made me again hate everything Republican like I did during the Reagan years. But since I'm not so naieve to think that any Republican I vote for is an endorsement of Mr. Rove or his hate-filled tactics, I just shut down the urge and continued to vote for whoever I thought was the best candidate for the job.

TPS

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Congratulatons to Senator Kerry on finally sorting out his autobiography.

I eagerly look forward to the first Presidential cycle in which the Vietnam War is not refought between the hippies and the squares over and over and over again. It may have to wait until 2020, but the day is coming. Sooner or later, these folks will have to retire and/or go to the Big Senate Hearing in the Sky.

Of course, by then each candidate will have to re-fight their particular personal history on Iraq/Afghanistan (and Iran!!!$#!), but at least we will be spared the endless pontifications of 'The Sixties Generation." Get over yourselves already.

 

[DadsDream]

Y'all just wait until you're my age and somebody 10 to 20 years younger than you tells you about how things were when you were an adult and they were still in diapers.

Get off my proppity!

 

[DadsDream]

Your problem is that you view the military and those who served as monolithic and having all the same opinions. I think it's a projection you make to other veterans which actually is indicative of what you think.

I completely disagree. You think he's pond scum. I really don't think, probably much to your chagrin, that there was a voting bloc known as Vietnam War Veterans. They didn't vote in a bloc--the swift boat crap was not just directed at Vietnam War Vets.

So really, there is no "us" because plenty of Vietnam War vets voted for Kerry. Further, it's I think insulting to claim that all that Vietnam War Vets would be duped by a cheap political stunt to sway their vote independent of examining the issues.



Your post assumes that all, or even most Vietnam War vets hated Kerry even before the Swift Boat stuff came along, further it assumes that Vietnam War vets only examined the 2004 campaing only through the lens of what went on in the past rather than the real issues on the table.

So no, I think you're completely off-base here.

I really, really should have taken you to an NCO club on an Army post and let you test your theories.

 

[TPS]

>>I really, really should have taken you to an NCO club on an Army post and let you test your theories.

An asskicking doesn't make it right.

TPS