Mass shooting in Buffalo NY. (1 Viewer)

[WhoDatPhan78]

How about you not twist what people are saying into an irrelevant point that nobody has made

Why are you bringing up bombings at all? I can only assume that it is to show that people can kill without using firearms.

You have to go back 10 years to find an example of a bomb attack that harmed a large number of people in the US.

There is a reason that our attackers prefer firearms, the fact that bombings are possible isn't an argument against more regulation of firearms.

 

[Sailorsaint]

Why are you bringing up bombings at all? I can only assume that it is to show that people can kill without using firearms.

You have to go back 10 years to find an example of a bomb attack that harmed a large number of people in the US.

There is a reason that our attackers prefer firearms, the fact that bombings are possible isn't an argument against more regulation of firearms.

I don't think anyone here is against strict regulation of firearms. The point most are making is that can't "get rid" of all firearms and that is the answer. You aren't going to disarm the American populace, so that isn't even a discussion.

 

[Dago]

Why are you bringing up bombings at all? I can only assume that it is to show that people can kill without using firearms.

You have to go back 10 years to find an example of a bomb attack that harmed a large number of people in the US.

There is a reason that our attackers prefer firearms, the fact that bombings are possible isn't an argument against more regulation of firearms.

The real question is why are you pretending that people haven't answered that question over and over and why are you trying to address a point that nobody made

Yes I agree that as things stand, people prefer guns to kill people. This idea that extremists and racists are going to either start holding hands and singing kumbaya or will just sit at home and grumble and not hurt anybody if we ban guns is just ridiculous.

Additionally, everyone refuses to answer how you will prevent guns from flowing across the border to get into the hands of criminals and how will you prevent people from 3D printing guns

 

[DaveXA]

Until there's a political will across both parties to amend the Constitution, there won't be any gun buyback programs or gun bans. That's simply not going to happen. I think we're getting ahead of ourselves in discussing what it would look like if guns were banned.

I think the focus needs to be taking an incremental approach to gun regulation, and that's a process that will take a long time to work through. Purchasing a new gun conventionally through a gun shop or store, there currently are background checks that individuals have to submit to before buying a gun. You won't typically be able to buy and walk out of the store with a gun the same day.

I do think maybe adding some sort of protections to prevent people with mental illness or a history of violence from acquiring new guns and for the secondary market, require transactions or ownership transfers be done through through a vendor so that a background check would be done. I believe there's been some movement in that direction in some respects. I can't recall the specifics for gun shows, but I want to say there was discussion in some states of adding steps to vet and verify purchases there, but don't know the specifics.

Addressing the issue of getting illegal guns off the streets is challenging because the law isn't relevant to a criminal who disregards it entirely. Those won't ever come off the streets without being interdicted by law enforcement.

There's a lot that can be addressed in the interim that I feel can at least make a dent in the overall numbers, but it's going to take a while to realize that progress. None of this is going to happen overnight. The effort to that end is worth it if it brings the numbers down.

I think everyone here wants to see the homicide rate come down. So while we may disagree how to get there, I think we all can agree there is more we can do to get these numbers down.

 

[Dago]

Is it better to be dead or wounded? Not sure why you felt the need to go all strawman there... I certainly am not saying people being wounded is insignificant. But if you gave me the choice to come out of a mass casualty event wounded or dead, I'll choose being wounded. And the fact of the matter is, the pressure cooker bomb was less effective at killing people than guns are.

I'm not even advocating banning firearms. I am trying to get people to acknowledge that having lots of guns cheaply and readily available make it easier to kill people.

Again, if all these other choices are just as effective as guns, which appears to be your claim, why do people choose to use guns way more to kill people than other choices? By your logic, if a gun was no more effective at killing people than any other choice, then people would be choosing other methods more frequently, but they aren't. Out of the 21,000 homicides in 2020, 19,000 were committed by guns. So, by far people choose to use guns to kill people.

If you want to defend yourself, are you walking around with a pressure cooker?

You make an accusation of strawman arguments and then put that last sentence in? Kind of hypocritical with that

 

[First Time Poster]

This is what First Time was talking about- the ‘animal’ or live wolf stuff just doesn’t fly
This dude is cultivated and the violent expression of theories held by a significant chunk of the population and broadcast on a major news channel
Trying to discuss him as aberrant from his group ultimately just allows this stuff to continue

I, mean, let's keep it 100. Even this discussion of "gun ownership" and "gun regulation" is disingenuous. We aren't discussing that with integrity. Because we are talking about WHITE gun ownership and regulation of WHITE gun owners. Those are whose rights are being feverishly debated. Not only does America not care about Black gun ownership but, since it's foundation, has codified disarmament of black gun ownership into law. Apple pie.

I'm not trying to be that dude and pupu on the 2nd amendment debate. It's an important one. Most def. But for what happened in Buffalo? If that's the first thing, the predominant thing to be discussed? Even the gun debate suffers from the sickness of white supremacy. How easily he was able to purchase a gun? Troubling. How easily he was indoctrinationated into white supremacy? More so.

And, yes, this isn't fringe. That's the lie we have to stop telling.

 

[DaveXA]

I, mean, let's keep it 100. Even this discussion of "gun ownership" and "gun regulation" is disingenuous. We aren't discussing that with integrity. Because we are talking about WHITE gun ownership and regulation of WHITE gun owners. Those are whose rights are being feverishly debated. Not only does America not care about Black gun ownership but, since it's foundation, has codified disarmament of black gun ownership into law. Apple pie.

I'm not trying to be that dude and pupu on the 2nd amendment debate. It's an important one. Most def. But for what happened in Buffalo? If that's the first thing, the predominant thing to be discussed? Even the gun debate suffers from the sickness of white supremacy. How easily he was able to purchase a gun? Troubling. How easily he was indoctrinationated into white supremacy? More so.

And, yes, this isn't fringe. That's the lie we have to stop telling.

While I 100% agree with you, wasn't this already addressed earlier in the thread? I understand more needs to be done to address this but I'm wondering what you're proposing we do here to address the indoctrination issue? How do we get our arms around that discussion? I'm more than willing to have the discussion. I can’t speak for others here though.

 

[Bill]

The biggest problem on this subject is the lack of respect for life. When life means nothing to someone, killing another person just seems like the best way to go about your business.

Guns do indeed make it easier to end a life, but it won’t stop the attitude of those who choose to kill even if the death is a suicide. However, as many bumper stickers inform us, guns aren’t going away. But neither can we stop some people from wanting to end a life. This simply means that humans can’t fix the problem. Hearts would have to change.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

The real question is why are you pretending that people haven't answered that question over and over and why are you trying to address a point that nobody made

Yes I agree that as things stand, people prefer guns to kill people. This idea that extremists and racists are going to either start holding hands and singing kumbaya or will just sit at home and grumble and not hurt anybody if we ban guns is just ridiculous.

Additionally, everyone refuses to answer how you will prevent guns from flowing across the border to get into the hands of criminals and how will you prevent people from 3D printing guns

You think guns are flowing across the border into the US from foreign manufacturers?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

You make an accusation of strawman arguments and then put that last sentence in? Kind of hypocritical with that

How so? Aren't you saying that guns are not more effective than other means to kill people? That seems to be your entire take during this discussion. There's no point to more gun regulation b/c people can just do other things to kill people which are going to be just as effective as guns.

My point is that guns are the most efficient tools readily available to kill people. And if you carry a gun for self defense, you should be doing it with the intent to kill someone you believe is threatening you, anything less is likely to get you and others hurt.

 

[Sailorsaint]

You think guns are flowing across the border into the US from foreign manufacturers?

We aren't manufacturing Uzi's and AK's. Yes, I for one believe that Mexico facilitates a large majority of illegal firearms found in the US.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

We aren't manufacturing Uzi's and AK's. Yes, I for one believe that Mexico facilitates a large majority of illegal firearms found in the US.

yea, how many Uzi's and AK's are being used?

I wasn't aware that we have a serious problem with those weapons.

I know that the net flow of illegal firearms is from the US across the border.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

While I 100% agree with you, wasn't this already addressed earlier in the thread? I understand more needs to be done to address this but I'm wondering what you're proposing we do here to address the indoctrination issue? How do we get our arms around that discussion? I'm more than willing to have the discussion. I can’t speak for others here though.

I think the issue is we really aren't discussing it. I started to acknowledge that earlier by saying that they "why" this guy decided to kill is more pressing than "how", but then let myself get distracted again.

While it's more pressing, it's also more difficult to unpack. @First Time Poster makes a good start, but we really aren't picking up with it. Even now, I'm not really sure how to move the discussion forward.

There's a couple of dimensions to the problem, the explicit manifestation of racism and white supremacy with this shooting. And the implicit racism and white supremacy baked into assumptions, laws and cultural norms that have sort of permeated in our society over 300 years.

It's extremely difficult because it's nearly impossible to have a frank discussion about this sort of thing without getting defensive.

 

[Sailorsaint]

yea, how many Uzi's and AK's are being used?

I wasn't aware that we have a serious problem with those weapons.

I know that the net flow of illegal firearms is from the US across the border.

Strawman. I'm not saying these individual idiots are using Uzis, or any fully auto weapon. But, if you want to convince yourself that there aren't compounds in the US that don't have a stockpile of these types of weapons, then fine. Do you want to see what a coordinated attack by any of these extremist groups would look like? I know that I don't. Fully auto weapons, armor piercing rounds, shredder shotguns, etc. are all game changers. When anyone talks about banning firearms, you will have to take away their weapons as well as those belonging to law abiding citizens. Strict regulation of firearms will work, to an extent, but there are still illegal types of weapons flowing into the country. And these groups aren't collecting them for target practice or deer hunting.