Underhill: Saints are interviewing probably 12 coaches (Final: officially 6 interviews) (1 Viewer)

[St.Dan]

I have to agree with this. And I think the irony is THICK that Loomis is so big on familiarity & continuity when, in fact, this franchise has experienced it's greatest periods of success when they went outside the organization for new blood.

I became a TRUE Saints fan when the USFL folded, and my favorite players and favorite coach ended up in NO. So I'll refrain from commentary on anything that happened before then. Besides, other than the Bum Phillips era, I hear it was mostly a sheet-show, LOL.

• Mr. Benson bought the team in the 1980s. He went outside the organization to hire Jim Finks as GM, one of the most respected GMs in the game. Jim Finks, in turn, went outside the organization (hell....outside the entire NFL) to hire Jim Mora. This resulted in the first "golden era" of Saints football. When Mora melted down, Rick Venturi was promoted from within to interim HC and compiled a 1-7(?) record.

• Mr. Finks passed away, and the Finks/Mora era slowly fizzled away. Bill Kuharich was promoted from within. This familiarity and continuity begat the hiring of Mike Ditka, which was a sheet-show from the get-go, and only got worse with time.

• Mr. Benson stepped in to clean up the mess, firing Kuharich and going outside the organization again to hire Randy Mueller. Kuharich was picked up the Chiefs front office in a low-profile executive capacity where he disappeared into anonymity...might even still work there? Never sniffed a GM opportunity again. Mueller went outside the organization to hire Jim Haslett, and this resulted in a renaissance of the Saints, at least for a short time. I wouldn't call it a "golden era", due to the short term nature of the era, but it did result in new heights...a playoff win....FINALLY!

• Mueller was dismissed for somewhat unknown/disputed reasons, but he brought Mickey Loomis with him from the Seahawks. Loomis was promoted from within, but the franchise continued to slide, both on and off the field, until the 3-13 Katrina season. I can't blame that one on Loomis, but maybe the slide started earlier. Mueller/Haslett won a playoff game. Loomis/Haslett didn't even make the playoffs. Haslett was dismissed.

• The Saints went outside the organization again and hired former Asst HC and QB coach of the Dallas Cowboys, Sean Payton. This began the 2nd "golden era" of Saints football. The TRUE "golden era" of multiple division titles, NFL records, frequent playoff appearances, deep runs, and a Superbowl CHAMPIONSHIP.

• CSP left under somewhat unknown/disputed reasons, and ML stayed inhouse to promote DA to HC. The Saints went from missing the playoffs due to a convoluted tie-break scenario in CSP's last season, to a record of 18-25 under DA; including a 2-7 final gasp before being fired mid-season. Darren Rizzi was promoted from within to interim HC and compiled a 3-5 record.

Looking at this in a broad brush manner, the best years of Saints football under the Benson era came from looking outside the organization. Jim Finks, Jim Mora, Randy Mueller, Mickey Loomis, Jim Haslett, and Sean Payton were ALL OUTSIDE HIRES that breathed new life into the franchise. Bill Kuharich, Rick Venturi, Dennis Allen, and Darren Rizzi were ALL INTERNAL HIRES with losing results. The only outside hire that produced losing results was Ditka.

Past history is no guarantee of future outcomes, but it seems pretty clear that the best chances for renewed success of the franchise will come from an OUTSIDE source....NOT FAMILIARTY. So why does ML seem to be placing such a premium on his familarity criteria?

Interestingly, the two more prominent names being considered right now -- Brady and Glenn -- are both external and internal candidates all at the same time. They'd be coming from other teams, but both were here before. I like your chronology there, though it's tough to compare across eras.

 

[St. Widge]

I have to agree with this. And I think the irony is THICK that Loomis is so big on familiarity & continuity when, in fact, this franchise has experienced it's greatest periods of success when they went outside the organization for new blood.

I really don't know where this narrative that Loomis is big on familiarity and continuity came from. Loomis has hired one head coach with ties to the team. The other head coach he hired had no connection to the team. And he hired multiple DCs with no ties to the team until they brought back DA and ended up promoting him. He also hired two OCs one was from the team, although he tried to hire Liam Coen who turned them down, and the other KK had no connection to the team.

So, I'm not sure how that means Loomis is obsessed with continuity and familiarity.

Loomis might get this hire wrong and he has many faults, but I don't know that being big on continuity and familiarity over everything else is one of them.

 

[St. Widge]

You literally just quoted me saying - "I'm not saying he should be considered or interviewed" - LOL

My point is... It's odd they didn't even extend him the courtesy (publicly or yet) - When there is a good chance they may have to bring him back as OC out of necessity... and that seems weird and "slap-in-the-facey" to me.

Why do you think there is a good chance they will have to bring him back as the OC?

 

[Infoman]

Why do you think there is a good chance they will have to bring him back as the OC?

Come on Widge... You aren't new here. You know why. The only thing ML seems to like more than drafting fat guys on potential... Is continuity... If they make the AAron Glenn hire... I'd bet my lefty Kubiak is retained... Maybe even if Vrabel is hired... and possibly others. For the sake of "offensive continuity"

 

[St. Geezy]

Yes. Loomis was the bean counter. Tom ran the show, he gave the keys to Sean. Tom hired Ditka as well and gave him the keys to trade away 1.5 draft classes... So Tom aint mr perfect, but to claim the same people will be hiring the coach as who hired Payton is just flat out false.

You can’t just discredit Loomis by saying anything good that happened was someone else and anything bad that happened was him. No one on this planet has ever discredited Loomis for hiring Sean.

You lose a lot of credibility when you have to make things up to justify a position.

Hiring the HC was Mickey Loomis’ task. This is not debatable.

Saints’ Payton more than just the right guy

WP: Mickey Loomis had never hired a head coach in more than 22 years as an NFL executive. Picking Sean Payton proved to be the perfect coach.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Rexman100]

I have to agree with this. And I think the irony is THICK that Loomis is so big on familiarity & continuity when, in fact, this franchise has experienced it's greatest periods of success when they went outside the organization for new blood.

I became a TRUE Saints fan when the USFL folded, and my favorite players and favorite coach ended up in NO. So I'll refrain from commentary on anything that happened before then. Besides, other than the Bum Phillips era, I hear it was mostly a sheet-show, LOL.

• Mr. Benson bought the team in the 1980s. He went outside the organization to hire Jim Finks as GM, one of the most respected GMs in the game. Jim Finks, in turn, went outside the organization (hell....outside the entire NFL) to hire Jim Mora. This resulted in the first "golden era" of Saints football. When Mora melted down, Rick Venturi was promoted from within to interim HC and compiled a 1-7(?) record.
• Mr. Finks passed away, and the Finks/Mora era slowly fizzled away. Bill Kuharich was promoted from within. This familiarity and continuity begat the hiring of Mike Ditka, which was a sheet-show from the get-go, and only got worse with time.
• Mr. Benson stepped in to clean up the mess, firing Kuharich and going outside the organization again to hire Randy Mueller. Kuharich was picked up the Chiefs front office in a low-profile executive capacity where he disappeared into anonymity...might even still work there? Never sniffed a GM opportunity again. Mueller went outside the organization to hire Jim Haslett, and this resulted in a renaissance of the Saints, at least for a short time. I wouldn't call it a "golden era", due to the short term nature of the era, but it did result in new heights...a playoff win....FINALLY!
• Mueller was dismissed for somewhat unknown/disputed reasons, but he brought Mickey Loomis with him from the Seahawks. Loomis was promoted from within, but the franchise continued to slide, both on and off the field, until the 3-13 Katrina season. I can't blame that one on Loomis, but maybe the slide started earlier. Mueller/Haslett won a playoff game. Loomis/Haslett didn't even make the playoffs. Haslett was dismissed.
• The Saints went outside the organization again and hired former Asst HC and QB coach of the Dallas Cowboys, Sean Payton. This began the 2nd "golden era" of Saints football. The TRUE "golden era" of multiple division titles, NFL records, frequent playoff appearances, deep runs, and a Superbowl CHAMPIONSHIP.
• CSP left under somewhat unknown/disputed reasons, and ML stayed inhouse to promote DA to HC. The Saints went from missing the playoffs due to a convoluted tie-break scenario in CSP's last season, to a record of 18-25 under DA; including a 2-7 final gasp before being fired mid-season. Darren Rizzi was promoted from within to interim HC and compiled a 3-5 record.

Looking at this in a broad brush manner, the best years of Saints football under the Benson era came from looking outside the organization. Jim Finks, Jim Mora, Randy Mueller, Mickey Loomis, Jim Haslett, and Sean Payton were ALL OUTSIDE HIRES that breathed new life into the franchise. Bill Kuharich, Rick Venturi, Dennis Allen, and Darren Rizzi were ALL INTERNAL HIRES with losing results. The only outside hire that produced losing results was Ditka.

Past history is no guarantee of future outcomes, but it seems pretty clear that the best chances for renewed success of the franchise will come from an OUTSIDE source....NOT FAMILIARTY. So why does ML seem to be placing such a premium on his familarity criteria?

Why? Because its the path of least resistance, which is to retain the staff an hire a familiar coach. Sure he'll avoid the awkwardness of firing friends. But the target gets placed on his head if it fails. Which history has shown that it will. If he goes outside and gets Vrabel and a new staff, then the target shifts to Vrabel. So for his own well being it would be best to hire outside of the organization. (I think it was Andrus that pointed this out on another thread)

 

[Rexman100]

Come on Widge... You aren't new here. You know why. The only thing ML seems to like more than drafting fat guys on potential... Is continuity... If they make the AAron Glenn hire... I'd bet my lefty Kubiak is retained... Maybe even if Vrabel is hired... and possibly others. For the sake of "offensive continuity"

Agreed, there's no way all that effort ML put out finding an OC goes to waste.

 

[VPCajun]

Yes. Loomis was the bean counter. Tom ran the show, he gave the keys to Sean. Tom hired Ditka as well and gave him the keys to trade away 1.5 draft classes... So Tom aint mr perfect, but to claim the same people will be hiring the coach as who hired Payton is just flat out false.

How about claiming that the same people who will be hiring the next coach are the ones who hired DA.

 

[kcirdor]

You can’t just discredit Loomis by saying anything good that happened was someone else and anything bad that happened was him. No one on this planet has ever discredited Loomis for hiring Sean.

You lose a lot of credibility when you have to make things up to justify a position.

Hiring the HC was Mickey Loomis’ task. This is not debatable.

Saints’ Payton more than just the right guy

WP: Mickey Loomis had never hired a head coach in more than 22 years as an NFL executive. Picking Sean Payton proved to be the perfect coach.

www.nbcnews.com

Once again.... Tom ran the show. You lose all credibility if you don't know that Tom was very involved in literally every single aspect of the Saints.

Sean Payton Remembers Tom Benson, a Stickler for Organization and an Invaluable Mentor

'I just wish every Saints fan had the privilege I had. I got to be mentored by Mr. Benson for over a decade.' Saints head coach Sean Payton remembers the late Tom Benson.

www.si.com

He hated a mess. He wanted everything to be neat, organized. He was a military man, through and through. One day in one of those meetings, he’d seen our mail room all messed up, and he said to me, “Coach, we’ve got to get that mailroom organized. Can’t have a mess.”

He was obsessed with all Saints employees parking in their correct spaces. Periodically, this topic would pull me from a game plan meeting. But in a business where the little things are the big things, I came to appreciate his attention to every detail.

Looks like Jeff Duncan should have cross referenced his Parking article with the loss of the leader of this team.

 

[cdogg]

Why not 3 time UFL (USFL) champion coach Skip Holtz? J/k, but go Stallions! (He’s actually been a phenomenal coach)

 

[kcirdor]

Why not 3 time UFL (USFL) champion coach Skip Holtz? J/k, but go Stallions! (He’s actually been a phenomenal coach)

Worked for Jim Mora... why not interview him..

 

[St. Geezy]

Once again.... Tom ran the show. You lose all credibility if you don't know that Tom was very involved in literally every single aspect of the Saints.

Sean Payton Remembers Tom Benson, a Stickler for Organization and an Invaluable Mentor

'I just wish every Saints fan had the privilege I had. I got to be mentored by Mr. Benson for over a decade.' Saints head coach Sean Payton remembers the late Tom Benson.

www.si.com

Looks like Jeff Duncan should have cross referenced his Parking article with the loss of the leader of this team.

Not wasting my time debating this or this out of context article you had to dig hard to find as “proof.”

Bottom line is that in your eyes, anything positive that’s occurred with this organization, the credit goes to someone else. Anything negative that has occurred goes to Loomis. That’s a sign of petulance and irrational debate and just not worth my time.

If an article in which Mickey Loomis explained back then why he chose Sean Payton isn’t enough, I don’t know what else to tell you.

 

[St. Widge]

Come on Widge... You aren't new here. You know why. The only thing ML seems to like more than drafting fat guys on potential... Is continuity... If they make the AAron Glenn hire... I'd bet my lefty Kubiak is retained... Maybe even if Vrabel is hired... and possibly others. For the sake of "offensive continuity"

Considering that the entire staff is being allowed to interview for other jobs including lateral moves, it seems unlikely that KK will be back or even that the majority of the staff will be back. I'll eat crow if it turns out that KK and most of the staff are back.

I'd guess that maybe Hodges, Young, and Benton and/or Dennison could be back, but I would expect significant staff turnover.

 

[No2DC]

I have to agree with this. And I think the irony is THICK that Loomis is so big on familiarity & continuity when, in fact, this franchise has experienced it's greatest periods of success when they went outside the organization for new blood.

I became a TRUE Saints fan when the USFL folded, and my favorite players and favorite coach ended up in NO. So I'll refrain from commentary on anything that happened before then. Besides, other than the Bum Phillips era, I hear it was mostly a sheet-show, LOL.

• Mr. Benson bought the team in the 1980s. He went outside the organization to hire Jim Finks as GM, one of the most respected GMs in the game. Jim Finks, in turn, went outside the organization (hell....outside the entire NFL) to hire Jim Mora. This resulted in the first "golden era" of Saints football. When Mora melted down, Rick Venturi was promoted from within to interim HC and compiled a 1-7(?) record.
• Mr. Finks passed away, and the Finks/Mora era slowly fizzled away. Bill Kuharich was promoted from within. This familiarity and continuity begat the hiring of Mike Ditka, which was a sheet-show from the get-go, and only got worse with time.
• Mr. Benson stepped in to clean up the mess, firing Kuharich and going outside the organization again to hire Randy Mueller. Kuharich was picked up the Chiefs front office in a low-profile executive capacity where he disappeared into anonymity...might even still work there? Never sniffed a GM opportunity again. Mueller went outside the organization to hire Jim Haslett, and this resulted in a renaissance of the Saints, at least for a short time. I wouldn't call it a "golden era", due to the short term nature of the era, but it did result in new heights...a playoff win....FINALLY!
• Mueller was dismissed for somewhat unknown/disputed reasons, but he brought Mickey Loomis with him from the Seahawks. Loomis was promoted from within, but the franchise continued to slide, both on and off the field, until the 3-13 Katrina season. I can't blame that one on Loomis, but maybe the slide started earlier. Mueller/Haslett won a playoff game. Loomis/Haslett didn't even make the playoffs. Haslett was dismissed.
• The Saints went outside the organization again and hired former Asst HC and QB coach of the Dallas Cowboys, Sean Payton. This began the 2nd "golden era" of Saints football. The TRUE "golden era" of multiple division titles, NFL records, frequent playoff appearances, deep runs, and a Superbowl CHAMPIONSHIP.
• CSP left under somewhat unknown/disputed reasons, and ML stayed inhouse to promote DA to HC. The Saints went from missing the playoffs due to a convoluted tie-break scenario in CSP's last season, to a record of 18-25 under DA; including a 2-7 final gasp before being fired mid-season. Darren Rizzi was promoted from within to interim HC and compiled a 3-5 record.

Looking at this in a broad brush manner, the best years of Saints football under the Benson era came from looking outside the organization. Jim Finks, Jim Mora, Randy Mueller, Mickey Loomis, Jim Haslett, and Sean Payton were ALL OUTSIDE HIRES that breathed new life into the franchise. Bill Kuharich, Rick Venturi, Dennis Allen, and Darren Rizzi were ALL INTERNAL HIRES with losing results. The only outside hire that produced losing results was Ditka.

Past history is no guarantee of future outcomes, but it seems pretty clear that the best chances for renewed success of the franchise will come from an OUTSIDE source....NOT FAMILIARTY. So why does ML seem to be placing such a premium on his familarity criteria?

This is why I was so opposed to the Allen hire from the beginning. Looking across the league, the evidence is clear: internal hires rarely go well. Walsh to Seifert is probably the best case and Seifert had a HOF QB sitting in the wings. Mike Mart was viewed as a brilliant OC , but the Rams crashed when he took over. Mick does not want change or anyone that will threaten his influence on the organization. He is the biggest obstacle to us returning to prominance, once at this point due to his ego.