{2023 Thread Bumped} Underhill Giving No Quarter to Nick Wright (2 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

This discussion is useful. So if we come into the new NFL year way over the cap, we have to restructure current contracts to get under mainly by converting salary into bonuses which can then be spread out over the full span of the contract and can even add dummy years on to the deal to spread it even further.

But if you need to do that to get under cap, and do even more of it to sign free agents, you are loading more and more current obligations into future cap space meaning the problem grows over time. Even if the cap goes up, if you aggressively shift current obligations into future years it is unlikely to go up enough to offset the combined weight of current commitments and those deferred from past years. So you have to repeat the process all over again and on into the future.

This smells of Enron accounting. Spend now, but don’t recognize It on the books for accounting purposes until future fiscal years, perhaps long after the assets you bought are themselves gone. These schemes tend to implode at some point…

The difference between the Saints and Eneron is those player salaries are all accounted for. It's not funny money in the sense that it disappears. Some can come off via trades, cuts or other transactions, but it's all accounted for. It's just allocated differently. And again, the salary cap isn't static, so unless it's stagnant or shrinks, a growing cap allows the team to spread out money over varying lengths of time. There's nothing saying the Saints can't do it.

Loomis knows the tricks of the trade and managed to keep a competitive core group of players for 15+ years which was good for 4th best record in the NFL and just 4 wins out of 2nd over that time frame. It's a tried and true formula that has worked well and allowed the team to be competitive over a long period of time. It's hard to argue the results imo. The recent dip is indicative of the transition period in which we saw our HOF QB retire and coach move on. It certainly hasn't been without its hiccups, but I think it's wise to not overreact and give Loomis a couple of years to make this transition work with Allen and Carr leading the team.

 

[DaveXA]

Let’s don’t push the “using a mortgage to pay off a credit card” analogy. You are risking your house to fund your impulse spending. Actually, maybe that is a good analogy for what the Saints have been doing.

It's more like a home equity loan to finance improvements on your own home, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Rouxble]

The difference between the Saints and Eneron is those player salaries are all accounted for. It's not funny money in the sense that it disappears. Some can come off via trades, cuts or other transactions, but it's all accounted for. It's just allocated differently. And again, the salary cap isn't static, so unless it's stagnant or shrinks, a growing cap allows the team to spread out money over varying lengths of time. There's nothing saying the Saints can't do it.

Loomis knows the tricks of the trade and managed to keep a competitive core group of players for 15+ years which was good for 4th best record in the NFL and just 4 wins out of 2nd over that time frame. It's a tried and true formula that has worked well and allowed the team to be competitive over a long period of time. It's hard to argue the results imo. The recent dip is indicative of the transition period in which we saw our HOF QB retire and coach move on. It certainly hasn't been without its hiccups, but I think it's wise to not overreact and give Loomis a couple of years to make this transition work with Allen and Carr leading the team.

As posted before, we didn’t start using this tried and true formula until 2020. We were never all in with our HOF QB the way we have been these last few seasons. Loomis always kept flexibility in the cap, a big signing one year was followed by a reset the next so that we could make changes where needed for the rest of the roster.

All of our success that you are attributing to our current strategy was realized under a different strategy.

 

[St. Geezy]

It's more like a home equity loan to finance improvements on your own home, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Great analogy. Spot-on.

 

[No2DC]

Then how do you explain Carr? How do you explain pundits being exasperated each year by the Saints signing someone they don't have the money to sign? That is the biggest proof. As fans, our problem understanding this hinges from the fact that we're not in the room. We don't know for sure who the team values and who they don't. Is Onyemata a cap casualty or a player Loomis no longer values?

Good point. Obviously, he was a target that came at a reasonable price, and we started up the annual restructuring machine to accommodate him. Onyeymata was a cap casualty once he wanted more than we were offering.

 

[No2DC]

I'm not so sure about this claim. How many times did Brees restructure or sign a "cap friendly" contract to stay in N.O?

I'm pretty sure Brees could have broke the bank (with team having fewer $$ to pay talent). Or Brees could have just walked for a bigger payday and not negotiate a deal that everyone in the Saints' organization could get behind to keep key players or go out and sign more talented players at other positions.

Drew did not sign a cap friendly deal until his last contract, up until then he wanted top QB money.

 

[St. Geezy]

As posted before, we didn’t start using this tried and true formula until 2020. We were never all in with our HOF QB the way we have been these last few seasons. Loomis always kept flexibility in the cap, a big signing one year was followed by a reset the next so that we could make changes where needed for the rest of the roster.

All of our success that you are attributing to our current strategy was realized under a different strategy.

Nah. We have been told we are in cap hell for a decade now (see pic attachment).

We have progressively gotten more and more aggressive with the strategy as the cap has seen larger and larger exponential growth and is projecting significantly more growth over the next 3 years.

And I think this highlights another part of what most observers aren’t appreciating with this system - the Saints have more data on future cap growth than fans do, so they’re able to operate based on a 3, 5, 7 year plan based on hard numbers most of us aren’t privy to.

The team doesn’t view the salary cap as one year, season-by-season prisms that fans and media “cap experts” do. The way they view it, they have the next 4+ years worth of cap dollars to spend on each upcoming season, obviously to a certain degree. Another season passes, another year in the future (with huge cap growth) gets added to the equation.

 

[DaveXA]

Good point. Obviously, he was a target that came at a reasonable price, and we started up the annual restructuring machine to accommodate him. Onyeymata was a cap casualty once he wanted more than we were offering.

Not necessarily. He might have been asking for more than the team thought he was worth. If that was the case, it had nothing to do with the cap. But only the front office can tell us that.

 

[Rouxble]

Nah. We have been told we are in cap hell for a decade now (see pic attachment).

We have progressively gotten more and more aggressive with the strategy as the cap has seen larger and larger exponential growth and is projecting significantly more growth over the next 3 years.

And I think this highlights another part of what most observers aren’t appreciating with this system - the Saints have more data on future cap growth than fans do, so they’re able to operate based on a 3, 5, 7 year plan based on hard numbers most of us aren’t privy to.

The team doesn’t view the salary cap as one year, season-by-season prisms that fans and media “cap experts” do. The way they view it, they have the next 4+ years worth of cap dollars to spend on each upcoming season, obviously to a certain degree. Another season passes, another year in the future (with huge cap growth) gets added to the equation.

All teams have info on the future salary cap, and are operating on 3-year plans that don’t require restructuring the top of the roster every year.

And the media take is irrelevant, the Saints were far from all in prior to 2020. How many restructures did we use in 2018, the last year we were close?

The answer is one, we cleared $3.5m with Armstead’s contract, and we had about $40m of restructuring capacity that went unused On that year’s cap.

Also, prior to 2020 only Brees would get void years in his deal, now every player earning above the vet minimum gets them. This is definitely uncharted territory for Loomis.

 

[DaveXA]

As posted before, we didn’t start using this tried and true formula until 2020. We were never all in with our HOF QB the way we have been these last few seasons. Loomis always kept flexibility in the cap, a big signing one year was followed by a reset the next so that we could make changes where needed for the rest of the roster.

All of our success that you are attributing to our current strategy was realized under a different strategy.

We no doubt started utilizing it more, but Loomis has been restructuring and making the most of cap space for at least the last 10 years. Cap management has been a topic of discussion for as long as he's been here. It certainly didn't just start in 2020. The strategy wasn't all that different. We're just pushing more than we have in the past to get the players we want now. The difference is in measure, but it's absolutely not new.

 

[Rouxble]

We no doubt started utilizing it more, but Loomis has been restructuring and making the most of cap space for at least the last 10 years. Cap management has been a topic of discussion for as long as he's been here. It certainly didn't just start in 2020. The strategy wasn't all that different. We're just pushing more than we have in the past to get the players we want now. The difference is in measure, but it's absolutely not new.

I agree that it has been a topic, but the facts don’t show we were anywhere near as aggressive before 2020. I listed some examples above.

I also pointed out in another thread/post that the Saints have not paid out more than 60% of player cash through bonuses before 2020, but we are four years running on the opposite strategy now. Our cash paid out as restructuring bonuses is way out of the historical norm.

 

[St. Geezy]

All teams have info on the future salary cap, and are operating on 3-year plans that don’t require restructuring the top of the roster every year.

And the media take is irrelevant, the Saints were far from all in prior to 2020. How many restructures did we use in 2018, the last year we were close?

The answer is one, we cleared $3.5m with Armstead’s contract, and we had about $40m of restructuring capacity that went unused On that year’s cap.

Also, prior to 2020 only Brees would get void years in his deal, now every player earning above the vet minimum gets them. This is definitely uncharted territory for Loomis.

Not sure what that first paragraph proves. Yes all teams have that data, but the Saints are opting to use that data and operate the cap differently, hence why the need to restructure guys, which is the point of my post. Kind of a circular argument there.

Your entire post is a bit circular and ignores that I have said that the cap explosion that’s being projected is why we are seeing a more and more aggressive approach to the strategy.

Based on our previous discussions/debates though, I do know you like to hear yourself talk and to debate for the sake of debate when it comes to these topics, so have at it if you must.

 

[DaveXA]

I agree that it has been a topic, but the facts don’t show we were anywhere near as aggressive before 2020. I listed some examples above.

I also pointed out in another thread/post that the Saints have not paid out more than 60% of player cash through bonuses before 2020, but we are four years running on the opposite strategy now. Our cash paid out as restructuring bonuses is way out of the historical norm.

There's a good reason for that increased aggressiveness though. Covid. The only way the team was going to stay competitive was to do what Loomis has done. Whether it works post-Brees/Payton is fair to say is an open question. I'm not saying I'm not nervous about how it might turn out, but for another shot at a SB, it's worth it. The question is can Allen and Carr get us there with a good supporting cast? Time will tell.

 

[jcollins9]

I agree that it has been a topic, but the facts don’t show we were anywhere near as aggressive before 2020. I listed some examples above.

I also pointed out in another thread/post that the Saints have not paid out more than 60% of player cash through bonuses before 2020, but we are four years running on the opposite strategy now. Our cash paid out as restructuring bonuses is way out of the historical norm.

The cap decreased in 2020. We made adjustments.

 

[new city champ]

There's a good reason for that increased aggressiveness though. Covid. The only way the team was going to stay competitive was to do what Loomis has done. Whether it works post-Brees/Payton is fair to say is an open question. I'm not saying I'm not nervous about how it might turn out, but for another shot at a SB, it's worth it. The question is can Allen and Carr get us there with a good supporting cast? Time will tell.

One thing that comes to mind is you would think that a team that operates this way would value draft picks as a ready source of cheap labor to fill in gaps in the roster. But far from being a team that trades down to accumulate picks, we’ve consistently sacrificed picks to trade up. Fewer picks and high cap leverage seems a curious combination…