Even Dr. Dre is disappointed in modern music. (17 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

Old people evolve out of the ability to evaluate what good new music is

Then how do you know what new music is good? Or if any new music is good?

 

[Dago]

Or it could just be that.

As one of the resident old guys here then, can you clarify your position? You named some artists who are making good new music. I agree with those named BTW. Are you (or am I, for that matter) able to evaluate new music or not? I know that sounds like a swipe, but Im being earnest. I'm trying to determine your stance on what you don’t like. Does that make sense? As in, "I like Kendrick, he's making great music. I don't like Sexxy Red or Moneybagg Yo, that **** is terrible" or is it, "I can't relate to Sexxy Red or Moneybagg Yo, so I'm unable to evaluate their music well maybe Id like if I were younger, but Kendrick's stuff sounds great to me."

But I know you couldn't have liked everything that came out in 97, although it's considered one of the best years in hip-hop. It's not like your had no discernment abilities then? At what point does our discernment become invalid?

Good or bad is relative, but I do agree that a large percentage of people become more static as they age

What is concerning to me is that people will go out of their way to vilify songs like "Baby It's Cold Outside" or to roast people for things they said about women 40-50+ years ago (Sean Connery and John Wayne come to mind) and ignore the fact that popular music today is objectively more sexist and misogynistic. The singers and the industry as a whole pretty much got a pass during the #metoo movement. What's more is that the biggest offenders are the ones getting played the most. I have no problem with any style of music even if it isn't necessarily my cup of tea. In the R&B or rap genre, I definitely prefer old school and a large part of that is the lyrics today. Objectively speaking, music has gotten FAR more misogynistic in the past two decades and the forerunner by a large margin is rap and R&B (it has to be noted that the first study does not include my least favorite genre, country music, as they are only listing the 4 most popular music genres. I was unsuccessful in finding a solid, objective study for country music)

Large scale analysis of gender bias and sexism in song lyrics - EPJ Data Science

We employ Natural Language Processing techniques to analyse 377,808 English song lyrics from the “Two Million Song Database” corpus, focusing on the expression of sexism across five decades (1960–2010) and the measurement of gender biases. Using a sexism classifier, we identify sexist lyrics at...

epjdatascience.springeropen.com

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311983.2024.2436723#d1e574

According to a study done in 2009 on rap music and negative themes, misogyny, violence toward women, degradation and objectivism were present in over half of the songs considered in the study.

Shaming and degrading vocabulary surrounding women are two of the most common themes. According to the study done in 2009, sexual objectification was the leading type of degrading language, while shaming and naming was secondary following the objectification.

The other key thing that surfaces in a study of negative, misogynistic lyrics is the praise of men who use and abuse women. Men often find that they earn respect when they are viewed as “pimps” and “players” that lord over their “hoes” and “beaches.” Notably, some rappers even discuss this in their songs.
Link to referenced study:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1097184X08327696

I think we can objectively say that music has gotten worse lyrically unless degrading women is your thing (I also think that the rhythm and flow of lyrics with the music across genres is worse but I don't have anything objective to back that up).
I also don't think there is any doubt that it takes far less talent musically due to the prevalence of computers and electronics.

 

[livefromDC]

I recently made a Spotify playlist called Rap Battle Royale, inspired by the recent beef between Kendrick Lamar and Drake. I set out to create a playlist of my favorite dis tracks of all-time, new and old, for the gym (when it's me sans kids).

I was surprised by the themes of today's beef compared to yesteryear. Exploiting knowledge of your opponent's personal life (past relationships, career choices, etc.), money, rap hierarchy, affiliation, and credibility have always been popular themes in diss tracks and remain so. However, today's artist are more likely to talk professional relationships, body image and lifestyle, perhaps a personal attack but it's missing something I constantly hear in the older songs....homophobia.

I listened to Ether by Nas for the first time in probably years and was surprised by the gay slurs being used. Now, I know that song bar for bar, word for word. When It first came out when I was in college, it was one of the best diss tracks ever released. Listening to it today, it hasn't aged well. I can admit that just as clearly as I can admit "Baby it's Cold Outside" is also from a different era and should stay there. Neither of these songs belong to today and that's okay.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Then how do you know what new music is good? Or if any new music is good?

this gets more into Art Crit theory, but its a matter of taste vs mechanics (mechanics being 'what is ____ trying to do')
when your inside content creation (whether making it or being active participant), there is a certain degree of what works/what doesn't work - what are you trying to express and how well is that landing??
when you're inside that, you are answering those questions both actively and passively
after you've been out of the game, you're not really asking/answering the question - you're an outsider
so the only real response should be of taste - 'i like it or I don't like it' - you're not evaluating the music bc it's not for you
...
or consider it this way
80s fashion - esp for women - had a fairly specific silhouette emphasizing shoulder and hips by cinching the waist
it was a look very much tailored to the male gaze (and a certain male gaze at that)
now imagine Janet Jackson telling Zendaya she doesn't know how to dress
Zendaya is not trying to model JJ's silhouette and she is emphasizing different things and the idea of a woman's body has changed significantly in the intervening decades

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I recently made a Spotify playlist called Rap Battle Royale, inspired by the recent beef between Kendrick Lamar and Drake. I set out to create a playlist of my favorite dis tracks of all-time, new and old, for the gym (when it's me sans kids).

I was surprised by the themes of today's beef compared to yesteryear. Exploiting knowledge of your opponent's personal life (past relationships, career choices, etc.), money, rap hierarchy, affiliation, and credibility have always been popular themes in diss tracks and remain so. However, today's artist are more likely to talk professional relationships, body image and lifestyle, perhaps a personal attack but it's missing something I constantly hear in the older songs....homophobia.

I listened to Ether by Nas for the first time in probably years and was surprised by the gay slurs being used. Now, I know that song bar for bar, word for word. When It first came out when I was in college, it was one of the best diss tracks ever released. Listening to it today, it hasn't aged well. I can admit that just as clearly as I can admit "Baby it's Cold Outside" is also from a different era and should stay there. Neither of these songs belong to today and that's okay.

we're all living in a post lil nas x world

 

[St. Widge]

this gets more into Art Crit theory, but its a matter of taste vs mechanics (mechanics being 'what is ____ trying to do')
when your inside content creation (whether making it or being active participant), there is a certain degree of what works/what doesn't work - what are you trying to express and how well is that landing??
when you're inside that, you are answering those questions both actively and passively
after you've been out of the game, you're not really asking/answering the question - you're an outsider
so the only real response should be of taste - 'i like it or I don't like it' - you're not evaluating the music bc it's not for you
...
or consider it this way
80s fashion - esp for women - had a fairly specific silhouette emphasizing shoulder and hips by cinching the waist
it was a look very much tailored to the male gaze (and a certain male gaze at that)
now imagine Janet Jackson telling Zendaya she doesn't know how to dress
Zendaya is not trying to model JJ's silhouette and she is emphasizing different things and the idea of a woman's body has changed significantly in the intervening decades

I'm not sure this answers my question unless your response is that you can't know what is or isn't good music and nobody else can either. Artistic nihilism to I thik coin a phrase.

And if that is your answer, I agree. Art, including music, is purely subjective in terms of what is "good" or "bad". There is no intrinsically good or bad art.

Some art or music is mechanically better than others. Some musicians have greater skill than others. Some painters have technically better skills than others. But whether it is good or bad is subjective.

 

[Taurus]

But how long is the list of "et al"? I don't doubt that Dre likes those artists too. He's praised Kendrick Lamar in the past. But seriously, after a few names, how good is the quality of rap right now as a whole?

Lebron and Steph Curry are two of the best basketball players of all-time. Each is arguably the best player to ever play their respective positions. And barring injury, Victor Wembanyama will be one of the most spectacular players ever for the next 15 years. I can acknowledge that while also noting that the NBA as a whole is just not as good as it once was. Outside of some really phenomenal players doing some game changing stuff (like Kendrick or Tyler the Creator or Doechii), the rest is just not exciting to watch. And not to go on a tangent, it extends to college basketball where women's basketball is a much better product than the men's game right now (with better star power to boot).

I get the eye rolling over older generations saying things were better "back in my day", I don't think that's what he's doing. He's still DEEP in the rap game producing. He hears what's coming out as he's still an active participant, not some retired guy who doesn't know the name of the players he criticizing.

There was a time in hip-hop where there was truly diverse, innovative sounds emerging on the popular scene from all over from Arrested Development to Wu Tang Clan (I'm sure there's a Z that I'm overlooking for that analogy, ah well). I just don't hear that today. And I have tried. I have more music at my finger tips than I ever did and even with a teenager keeping my in the loop. The hip-hop scene is rough. I mean, I'm not commenting from the sideline. I'm going see Tyler in March and probably Kendrick too. I'm listening to new stuff, trying to anyway.

Didn't Rick Beato scientifically break down why recent music objectively sucks?

He had a chart of diminishing complexity to where the last few years is essentially cavemen banging rocks and hooting.

 

[Yatman]

I also don't think there is any doubt that it takes far less talent musically due to the prevalence of computers and electronics.

qft

often takes no talent musically, but the industry and audiences are also far less sophisticated, so whatever

 

[brandon8283]

It’s also pretty common knowledge that the music you listen to when you’re a teen/early 20s tends to be the music you like later in life.

I would argue that those of us fogeys that have a soft spot for Kendrick, Tyler, even Childish Gambino’s stuff from a few years ago but aren’t huge fans of others rapping now like it because those guys put out hip hop that is much more like the stuff we grew up with.