TV HBO picks up George RR Martin series - Game of Thrones (1 Viewer)

[Saintman2884]

He probably believed in them too. His writings are a weird combination of accurate and verifiable historic record and wild random bullshirt he insists is true.

Pliny the Elder was also an open athiest, according to his adopted nephew and heir, and future Roman governor/statesman, Pliny the Younger. Most people today don't realize that many ancient Romans gave lip service to religion or went through the motions, but privately were closeted athiests, or were staunch materialists particularly the educated patrician/equestrian classes, but to openly announce you were an atheist in ancient Roman society took enormous courage because essentially you were saying Ceaser (Roman Emperor) wasnt a living god, his cult of personality was a silly, ridiculous waste of time and bullshirt. It's actually one of many reasons early Christians in remote areas of the Empire suffered sporadic persecutions, discrimination, and even martyrdom because they didnt see Ceaser as a god or participate in his cult of personality.

Pliny the Elder was a well-traveled man(first Roman to discover/explore Scandivinavia) but compared to our modern knowledge of the natural world, hard sciences, or even evolutionary process, his knowledge was very limited, so like many ancient philosophers, naturalists, and intellectuals in classical antiquity, he believed supernatural monsters like dragons, elves and orcs could or might exist as some medieval theologians believed unicorns existed before the Flood.

Also, if a highly-educated ancient Roman naturalist/scientist like Pliny discovered dinosaur bones or remains of a T-Rex, raptors, or steggosaurus, what do you think their most likely going to label it other then a dragon or some supernatural monster?

 

[Madmarsha]

I suspect he writes in a historically accurate prospective.

Did they use the "C" word that much in the olden days?

 

[TheRealJRad]

Did they use the "C" word that much in the olden days?

Australia like "olden days?"

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Pliny the Elder was also an open athiest, according to his adopted nephew and heir, and future Roman governor/statesman, Pliny the Younger. Most people today don't realize that many ancient Romans gave lip service to religion or went through the motions, but privately were closeted athiests, or were staunch materialists particularly the educated patrician/equestrian classes, but to openly announce you were an atheist in ancient Roman society took enormous courage because essentially you were saying Ceaser (Roman Emperor) wasnt a living god, his cult of personality was a silly, ridiculous waste of time and bullshirt. It's actually one of many reasons early Christians in remote areas of the Empire suffered sporadic persecutions, discrimination, and even martyrdom because they didnt see Ceaser as a god or participate in his cult of personality.

Pliny the Elder was a well-traveled man(first Roman to discover/explore Scandivinavia) but compared to our modern knowledge of the natural world, hard sciences, or even evolutionary process, his knowledge was very limited, so like many ancient philosophers, naturalists, and intellectuals in classical antiquity, he believed supernatural monsters like dragons, elves and orcs could or might exist as some medieval theologians believed unicorns existed before the Flood.

Also, if a highly-educated ancient Roman naturalist/scientist like Pliny discovered dinosaur bones or remains of a T-Rex, raptors, or steggosaurus, what do you think their most likely going to label it other then a dragon or some supernatural monster?

That doesn’t address the snarks and grumpkins question

 

[Saintman2884]

That doesn’t address the snarks and grumpkins question

Actually, it does in many ways. As ridiculous and ludicrous as it seems to modern types like us today, Guido, as well-traveled and knowledgable as scientists or naturalists were in ancient classical antiquity, what they knew about hard sciences, physics, astrology, astronomy, natural sciences and what Pliny knew about plant and animal species in other regions of the world like Far East, or sub-Saharan Africa or even the Hindu Kush, regions most Greeks or Romans never travelled to much less knew a lot about, someone like Pliny might as well believe that snarks, and grumpkins COULD exist as much as dragons because he couldn't prove they didn't exist, either. Remember, many people in medieval Europe believed unicorns once existed and were wiped out by the Flood.

Some ancient Romans also believed British Isles didn't exist or if they did, it was a scary, terrifying mystical place filled with ogres, malignant natural spirits, and evil, bloodthirsty Druids. In fact, before Claudius invasion of Britain in 43 C.E., some Roman legions nearly mutineed and refused to cross the English Channel from Gaul because quite a few Roman soldiers (and commanders) didnt believe Britain even existed.

I know it sounds ridiculous but the extent of what many ancient philosophers, scientists, or naturalists knew was extremely limited so even if Pliny the Elder or someone like Ptolemy likely thought the existence of dragons was asinine, well, no one had ever proven they didn't exist, so who knows?

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Actually, it does in many ways. As ridiculous and ludicrous as it seems to modern types like us today, Guido, as well-traveled and knowledgable as scientists or naturalists were in ancient classical antiquity, what they knew about hard sciences, physics, astrology, astronomy, natural sciences and what Pliny knew about plant and animal species in other regions of the world like Far East, or sub-Saharan Africa or even the Hindu Kush, regions most Greeks or Romans never travelled to much less knew a lot about, someone like Pliny might as well believe that snarks, and grumpkins COULD exist as much as dragons because he couldn't prove they didn't exist, either. Remember, many people in medieval Europe believed unicorns once existed and were wiped out by the Flood.

I know it sounds ridiculous but the extent of what many ancient philosophers, scientists, or naturalists knew was extremely limited so even if Pliny the Elder or someone like Ptolemy likely thought the existence of dragons was asinine, well, no one had ever proven they didn't exist, so who knows?

In terms of just raw information, sure we know more than they did
But as Einstein said, as the circle of knowledge increases, so too does the circumference of darkness
The stuff that we know we don’t know is much greater than antiquity

 

[DaveXA]

In terms of just raw information, sure we know more than they did
But as Einstein said, as the circle of knowledge increases, so too does the circumference of darkness
The stuff that we know we don’t know is much greater than antiquity

The more we know, sometimes...the more we wish we never knew, lol.

 

[boutte]

I just realized, George R. R. Martin absolutely hates women.

Doesn't everybody?

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

I've got about 5 more years before I will attempt to watch this series again!!!

OK, I took the remaining 5 years off their 10 year sentence for good behavior (HotD). I had truly forgotten how great season's 1-5 were! Princess Shireen's death had to be the hardest thing to watch on TV!

 

[DaveXA]

OK, I took the remaining 5 years off their 10 year sentence for good behavior (HotD). I had truly forgotten how great season's 1-5 were! Princess Shireen's death had to be the hardest thing to watch on TV!

Yep, seasons 1-5 are some of the best seasons of any series. Just awesome story telling and the visuals were pretty great. I could watch 10 times and not get tired of it.

 

[GeauxWhoDats]

See more

That funeral was a tough scene to watch. When the wagon got stuck I was looking away from the screen because I was ready for a head to roll off the wagon since they made a point to let us know that the Golden Cloak was caught with the head.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Pliny the Elder was also an open athiest, according to his adopted nephew and heir, and future Roman governor/statesman, Pliny the Younger. Most people today don't realize that many ancient Romans gave lip service to religion or went through the motions, but privately were closeted athiests, or were staunch materialists particularly the educated patrician/equestrian classes, but to openly announce you were an atheist in ancient Roman society took enormous courage because essentially you were saying Ceaser (Roman Emperor) wasnt a living god, his cult of personality was a silly, ridiculous waste of time and bullshirt. It's actually one of many reasons early Christians in remote areas of the Empire suffered sporadic persecutions, discrimination, and even martyrdom because they didnt see Ceaser as a god or participate in his cult of personality.

Pliny the Elder was a well-traveled man(first Roman to discover/explore Scandivinavia) but compared to our modern knowledge of the natural world, hard sciences, or even evolutionary process, his knowledge was very limited, so like many ancient philosophers, naturalists, and intellectuals in classical antiquity, he believed supernatural monsters like dragons, elves and orcs could or might exist as some medieval theologians believed unicorns existed before the Flood.

Also, if a highly-educated ancient Roman naturalist/scientist like Pliny discovered dinosaur bones or remains of a T-Rex, raptors, or steggosaurus, what do you think their most likely going to label it other then a dragon or some supernatural monster?

I mean a dragon isn’t necessarily supernatural. Although with knowledge of physics flight would be pretty much impossible beyond a certain size. Definitely well below carrying a human rider

 

[Saintman2884]

I mean a dragon isn’t necessarily supernatural. Although with knowledge of physics flight would be pretty much impossible beyond a certain size. Definitely well below carrying a human rider

Again, we're forced to return to the extent of how much even ancient highly-educated Greco-Roman, Persian, Jewish, or Egyptian scientists, naturalists, or philosophers really knew or understood as absolute fact about hard sciences, exotic animal and plant species they werent even aware existed on three seperate continents (North and South America, Antarctica) completely unknown and would remain that way for another 1,500 years and in Antarctica's case, not until the late 18th century was it actually "discovered" supposedly by a Russian commercial admiral.

I'm sure naturalists or philosophers like Pliny the Elder, Cato, Socrates or Aristotle if one pushed hard enough did they really believe orcs, elves, sprites really existed, they'd probably laugh and say, "No", but considering the context and severe limitations of what the classical antiquity scientific community knew 2,000 years ago someone like Ptolemy of Alexandria couldn't outright say or claim they didn't because they did know their was a much larger, bigger world that remained undiscovered and unexplored, so " Who Knows? It just might be real". Again, if someone like Plato or Aristotle or some other ancient naturalist found the mostly intact bones of a long-dead T-Rex or Steggosairus, what's his most logical, realistic reaction going to be?


A large, fire-breathing dragon does seem a bit supernatural to us in the prose and context that it can destroy entire armies, burn cities, towns, villages, leave carnage, destruction for seemingly miles on end is kind of a metaphor in GOT for nuclear weapons. Dragons are a killable version of nuclear weapons in Game of Thrones' Westerosi world mythology. Its not so much their existence that seems strange or odd to us as viewers, or even some Westerosi person, its what they symbolize as weapons and once they died off after this Targaryen Civil War, it took about 100 years or so, but having lost that major tactical advantage, their family's control over the Seven Kingdoms was doomed to end because other competing, major powerful Westeros houses stopped fearing them.

FWIW, there's another GOT prequel coming out, IIRC, next year maybe about Ser Duncan the Tall and his squire, the Egg (future Aegon Targaryen V) and it takes place about 80-90 years before events of GOT, but one of the main themes of that series according to its producers is how many people in Westeros, noble and commoners, have come to believe that dragons never existed or just mere ancient folk tales and how much Targaryen grip on power had weakened or loosened without fear of their dragons to enforce their whims.

 

[Saintman2884]

I mean a dragon isn’t necessarily supernatural. Although with knowledge of physics flight would be pretty much impossible beyond a certain size. Definitely well below carrying a human rider

As an aside, just as a curiosity: don't most dinosaurs, especially the large, enormous species strike most humans as being almost supernatural beings today 65 million years after they went extinct? They seem almost like mythical, magical comic-book type monsters or creatures that were ferocious, unstoppable, and fearsome?

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

As an aside, just as a curiosity: don't most dinosaurs, especially the large, enormous species strike most humans as being almost supernatural beings today 65 million years after they went extinct? They seem almost like mythical, magical comic-book type monsters or creatures that were ferocious, unstoppable, and fearsome?

Yeah they would be quite impressive / terrifying.

But in most cases, not much larger than say an African bush elephant, large brown Bear, or Nile crocodile.

But most of the large fauna in Europe was extirpated, by the end of the Roman era, for anyone in Europe at least, those large fauna existed only in artwork/drawings, they may as well have just been legend.

I remember reading a post, if dragons actually existed as they are popularly portrayed there would certainly be a dedicated campaign to exterminating them - like there was (successfully) with wolves in most of Europe

Closest thing to actual dragon would be Quetzalcoatlus

https://i.natgeofe.com/n/ac8cfcdc-2917-41f7-9c33-47c416cccbe5/pterosaur-fossils-flying-reptiles1.jpg