Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (13 Viewers)

[Heathen Saint]

If it stops people from killing each other, yes.

So would you be fine with this being done to Israelis, just to play devil's advocate?

 

[Heathen Saint]

No, just showing the types of people that support Hamas. We, the west, are so stupid we let them in. Fortunately, Europe is starting to deport/repatriate them.

What do you think that Hamas does that Israel does not do? I think if one cares about the act, it doesn't matter who does it - they'll critique them.

Unfortunately it seems when the same or worse acts are committed by Israel, we find the mental gymanstics to excuse it. Wouldn't a more truthful approach be
to call out evil wherever it lies?

And I'm sure you're cognizant of the fact that much of our government is influenced by Israeli foreigners, right?

Would you be upset if it were Hamas funding politicians like AIPAC and other lobbying groups do to make certain decisions and Israeli government is unapologetically blasting propaganda at Americans?

Of course you would - and you should. So why not Israel? That's the question.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/05/israel-targeted-lawmakers-in-disinformation-campaign-00161906

https://www.npr.org/2024/07/09/nx-s1-4994027/israel-us-online-influence-campaign-gaza

 

[baarbogast]

So would you be fine with this being done to Israelis, just to play devil's advocate?

Sorry it took so long, but if the roles were reversed and the Palestinians had a functioning government recognized by 90% of the world, I would have no problem moving them.

 

[baarbogast]

Hamas Used Gaza Hospital as a Command Center, U.S. Intelligence Says (Published 2024)

Israeli forces stormed the site in November, drawing intense international scrutiny and criticism.

www.nytimes.com

UPDATED: Evidence Of UNRWA Aid To Hamas On And After October 7th - UN Watch

Damning evidence of the extent of UNRWA’s ties and material assistance to Hamas continues to pour in. In February, the IDF revealed its discovery of a Hamas tunnel network under UNRWA’s Gaza headquarters housing a sophisticated data center with electricity cables running straight up into the...

unwatch.org

1. Hamas shot at IDF troops from UNRWA school. An injured IDF soldier testified that he was injured when Hamas fighters shot at him from an UNRWA school, killing his commander. According to the injured soldier, the Hamas fighters used the school as cover to attack Israeli troops and also to store weapons. (@ChayaRaichik10, January 30, 2024).
2. UNRWA aid bags used by Hamas to stores equipment. Photo shows Nukhba military vests found in UNRWA bags inside a medical clinic. (@cogatonline, January 6, 2024).
3. UNRWA facilities used for Hamas weapons storage. Col. Elad Shushan, commander of the 646th Reserve Paratroopers Brigade: “There is not a UNRWA site, school, mosque, or kindergarten in which we didn’t find weapons. None. One hundred percent.” (Times of Israel, January 18, 2024).

a liitle old

Children used as propaganda in Israel-Gaza crisis – DW – 05/18/2021

Fathers cradling their babies, women mourning over the dead bodies of children — as the situation in Gaza and Israel escalates, more and more images emerge. But not all of them are real. DW analyzes some viral posts.

www.dw.com

 

[baarbogast]

Cleric linked to Iran's supreme leader deported from Germany

An alleged representative of Iran's Supreme Leader in Germany has been deported, the local interior ministry said, as part of a crackdown on institutions linked to the Islamic Republic.

www.iranintl.com

Swedish daily: Iranian cleric arrested, facing deportation

An Iranian cleric, an imam at an Islamic Center in suburban Stockholm, has been arrested for nearly two weeks and faces deportation from Sweden, Expressen reported Friday.

www.iranintl.com

France expels 'radical' Tunisian imam Mahjoub Mahjoubi over flag comments

Immigration reforms have made it easier for the French government to forcibly remove foreign residents.

www.bbc.com

Meloni's Italy expels pro-Hamas Imam Zulfiqar Khan | World News - Times of India

Europe News: Italy has deported Imam Zulfiqar Khan for promoting antisemitism, radical ideologies, and supporting Hamas. His expulsion highlights Italy's commitment to countering hate speech and extremism on the anniversary of the October 7th massacre.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Amsterdam police detain pro-Palestinian protesters at banned demonstration

Police detained dozens people Sunday for taking part in a demonstration in central Amsterdam that had been outlawed following violence targeting fans of an Israeli soccer club, a local broadcaster reported.

www.france24.com

What is Taqiyya in Islam? When do Muslims practice it?

Answer (1 of 25): The most powerful weapon of Muslims is 'Al-Taqiyya' That's why I don't believe in the words of any mullah/muslims This weapon has contributed so much in spreading Islam, that even their Muslim armies (of Arab , Turkey etc) could not achieve as much. The name of this weapon is...

www.quora.com

The most powerful weapon of Muslims is 'Al-Taqiyya'

That's why I don't believe in the words of any mullah/muslims

This weapon has contributed so much in spreading Islam, that even their Muslim armies (of Arab , Turkey etc) could not achieve as much.

The name of this weapon is “Al-Taqiyya”.

According to Al-Taqiyya, if any kind of lie, deception or deceit has to be done for the propagation, spread or defense of Islam then – all religions are acceptable.

This technique is especially employed by them when they are in minority in a perticular country or region (Darul harb), and the majority population consists of non-Muslims, i.e kafirs - (wajib-ul qatal)

In this way Al-Taqiyya has saved Muslims for centuries, and is still saving them.


I had first hand experience this past fall in Germany. These Islamists (with Palestinian flags) were rioting and blocking traffic in several cities. They have/are showing they can't live peacefully with the west. You should read up on the UK rape/grooming problem caused by the fundamentalists (I realize that is a different tangent).

 

[baarbogast]

What do you think that Hamas does that Israel does not do? I think if one cares about the act, it doesn't matter who does it - they'll critique them.

Unfortunately it seems when the same or worse acts are committed by Israel, we find the mental gymanstics to excuse it. Wouldn't a more truthful approach be
to call out evil wherever it lies?

And I'm sure you're cognizant of the fact that much of our government is influenced by Israeli foreigners, right?

Would you be upset if it were Hamas funding politicians like AIPAC and other lobbying groups do to make certain decisions and Israeli government is unapologetically blasting propaganda at Americans?

Of course you would - and you should. So why not Israel? That's the question.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/05/israel-targeted-lawmakers-in-disinformation-campaign-00161906

https://www.npr.org/2024/07/09/nx-s1-4994027/israel-us-online-influence-campaign-gaza

Our government is influenced by many countries and PACs, never said I liked it. The problem, as I see it, is that Hamas isn't striking military or dual use targets. They attacked a concert that was trying to promote peace, went through kibbutzs and murdered families, and took civilians hostage.

Had the concert been on a military post, while I wouldn't have liked it, would be much less damned by the west (primarily USA). It also doesn't help when they put videos out of parents holding "dead" children that are clearly still alive. People carrying a stretcher and alarm goes off and the "injured/dead" person gets up and runs for shelter. I have posted videos in the thread showing these actions.

I have posted videos/pictures of weapons and munitions being stored under hospitals and schools. That is a war crime, Israel destroying them is not. Any civilian deaths are then Hamas' fault and not Israel. I have also posted tweets produced by Hamas showing them firing mortars from inside and near bazaars. That is a Hamas war crime, Israel firing back is not.

It also doesn't help when you claim famine and the day a cease fire is signed, a bunch of well fed and well dressed people show up in the streets. It doesn't help when a single hostage is jeered and threatened by hundreds of Palestinians. The stories of the brutal conditions and dehumanizing things the hostages went through also don't help. I have posted tweets about them (may have been Hez bollah) storing weapons and muntions in apartment buildings. That is a war crime, Israel destroying buildings isn't. Any civilian deaths fall on Hamas and Hez bollah and not Israel.

I've pointed out how their supporters in Europe don't like western values. They want us to conform to them, many people would be dragged back 600 years. The Islamic fundamentalists and the attacking of non military targets are the two primary reasons, as I see it, for the ardent support of Israel.

 

[baarbogast]

What is the difference between a partisan and a terrorist?

Answer (1 of 5): A partisan is someone who you like and admire. They engage in unconventional warfare and violent activities. They rarely are connected in any stable fashion to either an organization or sitting government. A partisan is usually on the winning side. A terrorist is someone who yo...

www.quora.com

Key Differences

• Targeting: Partisans generally target military forces or occupiers, while terrorists often target civilians to instill fear.
• Legitimacy: Partisans may be seen as legitimate fighters within their context, whereas terrorism is often viewed as illegitimate or morally reprehensible.
• Goals: While both may have political aims, the means and methods they use to achieve those aims can differ significantly.

In summary, the distinction often lies in the methods employed, the targets chosen, and the political context in which these actors operate.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Sorry it took so long, but if the roles were reversed and the Palestinians had a functioning government recognized by 90% of the world, I would have no problem moving them.

You should. That's my point.

You (general you) don't get to just move a population of people from their homeland because you're a 'functioning government recognized by etc etc'.

The bandwagon fallacy, especially with regard to human life and wellbeing, is an extremely erroneous and problematic position to hold.

You're conflating what you say is widespread political recognition with moral and legal legitimacy. That's a big ethical (and logical) issue.

I find it hard to believe you'd also be fine with allowing any country with, as you said 'a govt recognized by x % of the world' expelling US citizens by force.

But I've been surprised here before, so maybe you can clarify that for me.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Our government is influenced by many countries and PACs, never said I liked it. The problem, as I see it, is that Hamas isn't striking military or dual use targets. They attacked a concert that was trying to promote peace, went through kibbutzs and murdered families, and took civilians hostage.

Not only do I not like it, Barbogast, I think it should be illegal for a foreign country to interfere in our elections. Do you?

Had the concert been on a military post, while I wouldn't have liked it, would be much less damned by the west (primarily USA).

Well we certainly don't know that for certain.

It also doesn't help when they put videos out of parents holding "dead" children that are clearly still alive. People carrying a stretcher and alarm goes off and the "injured/dead" person gets up and runs for shelter. I have posted videos in the thread showing these actions.

And this goes to full Alex Jones conspiratorial level.

If you believe that the thousands of photos / videos of dead, buried, maimed etc. children are "fake news" then I really don't know what else to tell you.

I can't force you to go to Gaza and have to stand in the street and watch IDF snipers pick off women and children. I feel like some here would see that and still try to make up excuses.

It's disgusting.

I have posted videos/pictures of weapons and munitions being stored under hospitals and schools. That is a war crime, Israel destroying them is not. Any civilian deaths are then Hamas' fault and not Israel. I have also posted tweets produced by Hamas showing them firing mortars from inside and near bazaars. That is a Hamas war crime, Israel firing back is not.

Once again, unless you have a pretty sick line of logic, you can't explain your way out of this. We simply put the shoe on the other foot to see if it stands.

So I ask you "Would you be okay with a foreign nation slaughtering US citizens en masse as long as there were reports of weapons having been hid underground"?

It's not like other countries wouldn't have justification to strike the US, as Israel did after Hamas attacked concert goers. The US has slaughtered civilians for decades now.

It also doesn't help when you claim famine and the day a cease fire is signed, a bunch of well fed and well dressed people show up in the streets.

More Alex Jones style nonsense.

The reports of starvation have been verified by many US-vetted world aid organizations.

Are you going to claim next that the footage from Gaza being completely leveled and uninhabited is CGI?

It doesn't help when a single hostage is jeered and threatened by hundreds of Palestinians. The stories of the brutal conditions and dehumanizing things the hostages went through also don't help. I have posted tweets about them (may have been Hez bollah) storing weapons and muntions in apartment buildings. That is a war crime, Israel destroying buildings isn't. Any civilian deaths fall on Hamas and Hez bollah and not Israel.

There are currently thousands of Palestinian prisoners. Why haven't you talked about that?

It seems you care about one side only.

I've pointed out how their supporters in Europe don't like western values. They want us to conform to them, many people would be dragged back 600 years. The Islamic fundamentalists and the attacking of non military targets are the two primary reasons, as I see it, for the ardent support of Israel.

And there it is.

You don't get to legitimize the dehumanization of others based on your idea of western superiority. Especially when the side you're supporting is slaughtering people based on religious extremism.

Just like the folks in this country who claim to be 'pro life' but attack the rights of children and women nonstop -- I doubt that they are serious. It's all about 'sides' and 'winning'.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[CoolBrees]

Reuter's so true and accurate

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/tens-thousands-mourn-hezbollahs-slain-leader-nasrallah-mass-funeral-2025-02-23/

 

[Det. Brees]

This is what Palestine should have done, but they stood by and supported hezbollah now they have to pay the price.