Analysis Pro sports teams where the coaching staffs had a split locus of control (e.g. mid-1980s Chicago Bears) (1 Viewer)

[Doug B]

(I used the 'Analysis' tag not because I am presenting fully-formed analysis. Instead, I'm hoping that the house will contribute to a group analysis of the Saints' current coaching & 'culture' issues in comparison to how some pro sports teams in the past have responded to similar challenges.)

Something @ELIASJWILLIAMS wrote in the recent Jeff Duncan article thread made me think about how some successful pro teams have been built with kind of a 'split coaching' culture. That is, the nominal head coach (or manager for baseball) wasn't necessarily the team's sole locus of control.

by ELIASJWILLIAMS:
I don't doubt that, I mean it's incredibly clear that Dennis Allen is mom and the Saints don't have a paternal influence next to DA. However, that doesn't mean you have to get rid of him...you just insert that type of influence, marry them together and it SHOULD in theory resolve the issue. That's why Gruden makes sense.

DA is who he is, but if you believe in him, which Loomis seems to, you find ways to complement him.

At first blush, you might read the bolded and think "no way would that work." And though the comparisons are not perfect, there have been times that pro sports teams bolstered a head coach with another commanding presence. The mid-1980s Chicago Bears were one of the premiere examples. The Bears fired head coach Neill Armstrong after the 1981 season. The defensive players lobbied owner George Halas to promote defensive coordinator Buddy Ryan to head coach, or at least to make the new head coach retain Ryan as DC. The latter is what happened when Mike Ditka was hired as head coach. Thinking back on this ... it probably was made possible because Ditka was a former player for Halas -- hard to see this kind of thing happen in today's NFL.

Anyway ... yes, there's no doubt that Dennis Allen and Mike Ditka had wildly different personalities. However, despite the bravado and bluster, in important ways Mike Ditka never became the singular locus of control of the entire Bears' team. Ryan's defensive players remained staunchly loyal to Ryan ahead of Ditka.

Ryan and Ditka "feuded openly", though Ditka mostly left the defense in Ryan's hands. "Ditka challenged Ryan to a fight during halftime" of the Bears' 1985 matchup versus the Miami Dolphins, with the team at 12–0 and trailing 31–10 in a nationally televised Monday Night Football broadcast. "The guys on the team had to separate them—the offense getting Ditka away from Ryan and defensive guys holding Buddy." The Bears went on to lose the game 38–24, which was their only loss of the season. However, the team would go on to Super Bowl XX where they would dominate the New England Patriots 46–10. The Bears defense carried Ryan off the field on their shoulders" ... right behind Mike Ditka", who was also being carried off the field. This was the first time two coaches were ever carried off the field at the Super Bowl.

Ditka, loyal to the Bears' organization, chafed under the arrangement but put up with it or four seasons. Ryan went on to become head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles in 1986.

...

I know there are other examples of this in pro sports -- granted, not always with championship teams as the 1985 Bears were.

A different kind of coach split took place on the 1990s Chicago Bulls and the early 2000s L.A. Lakers title teams. In 1985, Bulls GM Jerry Krause hired a semi-retired Tex Winter -- who had been out of NBA coaching since 1973 -- as an assistant coach to HC Doug Collins. Winter was especially well-versed in the "triangle offense", a once-popular scheme developed by Winter's college coach Sam Barry in the 1940s. Keep in mind that the dominant form of NBA basketball at the time was based on fast-break offense and sacrificing defense in order to get into that next break -- NBA fans on this board will remember the common 120-something scores of that era. Winter's return to coaching, then, represented kind of an innovation by looking back and dusting off some previously-discarded ideas about how to run an offense.

Like Buddy Ryan, Tex Winter stayed with the team after his original head coach was let go. Fellow Bulls' assistant Phil Jackson was promoted to head coach (kind of like Dennis Allen! -- OK, that was worth a chuckle) in 1987. Jackson and Winter would coach together for 18 more seasons with both the Bulls and Lakers. Jackson-Winter wasn't exactly like Ryan and Ditka where an entire unit was loyal to one over the other. Basketball rosters are too small to operate that way. However, Jackson and Winter still distributed control of the team between them. Thanks to Winter's presence, Jackson was able to almost completely able to divest himself from basketball strategy and commit to the team's culture -- in his case, deeply studying his players' personalities as individuals and seeking ways to convince talented individuals to sacrifice their own glory for the greater good of the team. Winter left the psychological concerns with Jackson and concentrated on breaking down their opponents' subtly-displayed weaknesses and putting his own players in their best strategic position to succeed.

...

So, back to the Saints and ELIASJWILLIAMS' thought-provoking post above. Can a split locus of control work here in New Orleans? It could be John Gruden, it could be someone else. The question for analysis is: Is it feasible for the Saints? Does filling in Dennis Allen's deficiencies with another coach make sense?

And, for the purposes of discussion and analysis: Can anyone propose similar examples from any sport? Pro, college, Olympics, anything at all.

 

[Saintman2884]

(I used the 'Analysis' tag not because I am presenting fully-formed analysis. Instead, I'm hoping that the house will contribute to a group analysis of the Saints' current coaching & 'culture' issues in comparison to how some pro sports teams in the past have responded to similar challenges.)

Something @ELIASJWILLIAMS wrote in the recent Jeff Duncan article thread made me think about how some successful pro teams have been built with kind of a 'split coaching' culture. That is, the nominal head coach (or manager for baseball) wasn't necessarily the team's sole locus of control.



At first blush, you might read the bolded and think "no way would that work." And though the comparisons are not perfect, there have been times that pro sports teams bolstered a head coach with another commanding presence. The mid-1980s Chicago Bears were one of the premiere examples. The Bears fired head coach Neill Armstrong after the 1981 season. The defensive players lobbied owner George Halas to promote defensive coordinator Buddy Ryan to head coach, or at least to make the new head coach retain Ryan as DC. The latter is what happened when Mike Ditka was hired as head coach. Thinking back on this ... it probably was made possible because Ditka was a former player for Halas -- hard to see this kind of thing happen in today's NFL.

Anyway ... yes, there's no doubt that Dennis Allen and Mike Ditka had wildly different personalities. However, despite the bravado and bluster, in important ways Mike Ditka never became the singular locus of control of the entire Bears' team. Ryan's defensive players remained staunchly loyal to Ryan ahead of Ditka.



Ditka, loyal to the Bears' organization, chafed under the arrangement but put up with it or four seasons. Ryan went on to become head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles in 1986.

...

I know there are other examples of this in pro sports -- granted, not always with championship teams as the 1985 Bears were.

A different kind of coach split took place on the 1990s Chicago Bulls and the early 2000s L.A. Lakers title teams. In 1985, Bulls GM Jerry Krause hired a semi-retired Tex Winter -- who had been out of NBA coaching since 1973 -- as an assistant coach to HC Doug Collins. Winter was especially well-versed in the "triangle offense", a once-popular scheme developed by Winter's college coach Sam Barry in the 1940s. Keep in mind that the dominant form of NBA basketball at the time was based on fast-break offense and sacrificing defense in order to get into that next break -- NBA fans on this board will remember the common 120-something scores of that era. Winter's return to coaching, then, represented kind of an innovation by looking back and dusting off some previously-discarded ideas about how to run an offense.

Like Buddy Ryan, Tex Winter stayed with the team after his original head coach was let go. Fellow Bulls' assistant Phil Jackson was promoted to head coach (kind of like Dennis Allen! -- OK, that was worth a chuckle) in 1987. Jackson and Winter would coach together for 18 more seasons with both the Bulls and Lakers. Jackson-Winter wasn't exactly like Ryan and Ditka where an entire unit was loyal to one over the other. Basketball rosters are too small to operate that way. However, Jackson and Winter still distributed control of the team between them. Thanks to Winter's presence, Jackson was able to almost completely able to divest himself from basketball strategy and commit to the team's culture -- in his case, deeply studying his players' personalities as individuals and seeking ways to convince talented individuals to sacrifice their own glory for the greater good of the team. Winter left the psychological concerns with Jackson and concentrated on breaking down their opponents' subtly-displayed weaknesses and putting his own players in their best strategic position to succeed.

...

So, back to the Saints and ELIASJWILLIAMS' thought-provoking post above. Can a split locus of control work here in New Orleans? It could be John Gruden, it could be someone else. The question for analysis is: Is it feasible for the Saints? Does filling in Dennis Allen's deficiencies with another coach make sense?

And, for the purposes of discussion and analysis: Can anyone propose similar examples from any sport? Pro, college, Olympics, anything at all.

The late 80's/1990's Bulls werent the only NBA teams to win with dominant, stifling defense, before them, their was the 1980's Celtics teams that were the gritty, grind-it-out, rough-and-tumble, nasty and aggressive counterpoint to the up-tempo, high-scoring Lakers "Showtime" offense, plus they had some great, legendary future HOF players like Larry Bird, Robert McHale, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge.

Then there was the NBA's version of the Oakland Raiders----The "Bad Boys", Detroit Pistons of Rodman, Laimbeer, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars--they personified nasty, pushy confrontational defensive-oriented basketball, and were and remain the biggest reasons why MJ and Bulls never won 8 or 9 NBA titles. My point is, the Bulls werent the only ones who proved you didnt have to score 125-130 points to win games, division titles, or Championships back then much less use Tex Winter's " triangle offense" to do it. Before Phil Jackson became one of the NBA's greatest HC's ever, he was a pretty damn good supporting player for the New York Knicks in the late 60's and early 70's and he cut his teeth in semi-pro and even international leagues like being a HC of a Puerto Rican pro team during the 1980's.

Mike Ditka probably wouldn't have kept Ryan on if the decision had been left in his hands after the 1981 season, those two were like oil and water. IMHO, one major reason why Ditka never likes-and-still doesn't like Buddy Ryan even now after his death, is because Ryan wasnt afraid of him, saw him for who he truly was and that's, a great, HOF player and a decent assistant, but a horrible HC. Buddy Ryan, by the early 80's, already had a damn good resume, he had been the Jets LB coach during their SB III win, and he was the DC for the 1970's Minnesota Vikings " Purple People Eaters" defense from 1973-78, yeah Buddy Ryan ran that defense, too. He already had a sterling reputation as a DC so he knew he didnt need Ditka's approval and I believe Ditka was intimidated by Buddy because he could actually coach better then him and IMHO, Ditka realized that Ryan knew that, too and that hurt his credibility and respect he was trying to build up amongst his players.

 

[Elvis]

That was a great read and thanks for posting it. I think to some degree NFL teams already have that with the Offensive, Defensive and ST coordinators being the leaders of their particular units. Even this week we've seen teams move on from some of those, while retaining the other side.

The head coach in the NFL should be well enough versed in one side or the other to be able to call plays and strategize against their opponents, but more importantly they should be able to lead the entire team of men. We have a couple of examples currently in the NFL that are great leaders and don't call plays (John Harbaugh and Dan Campbell), but they are more rare than the other way around.

How many successful head coaches can't lead a group of men on game day but are good play callers? I would argue that there is 1/4 of one those in the NFL right now. DA is that 1/4. He's a good defensive play caller when doing that job alone, but he's a poor leader of men. In fact, even him attempting to do that job subtracts from his ability to coach the defense as well as it could be.

Can anyone think of a team in recent memory that had a subordinate that was a superior leader to the head coach where the head coach survived?

 

[No2DC]

Lipstick on a pig. It's not unusual for the the offense and defense to operate in different worlds, so to speak, but usually, the HC is the "alpha." You're basically saying Allen is weak (beta, as they say in the manosphere), and he needs an enforcer to put a fire under people's butts. This is not about personality because there have been laid-back cerebral coaches (Dungy, Gibbs, for example). Allen doesn't earn people's respect, and that's a deeper issue. We need to blow it up, but since that's not happening, let's order some lipstick for the pig.

 

[Saintman2884]

That was a great read and thanks for posting it. I think to some degree NFL teams already have that with the Offensive, Defensive and ST coordinators being the leaders of their particular units. Even this week we've seen teams move on from some of those, while retaining the other side.

The head coach in the NFL should be well enough versed in one side or the other to be able to call plays and strategize against their opponents, but more importantly they should be able to lead the entire team of men. We have a couple of examples currently in the NFL that are great leaders and don't call plays (John Harbaugh and Dan Campbell), but they are more rare than the other way around.

How many successful head coaches can't lead a group of men on game day but are good play callers? I would argue that there is 1/4 of one those in the NFL right now. DA is that 1/4. He's a good defensive play caller when doing that job alone, but he's a poor leader of men. In fact, even him attempting to do that job subtracts from his ability to coach the defense as well as it could be.

Can anyone think of a team in recent memory that had a subordinate that was a superior leader to the head coach where the head coach survived?

Here's another thing to consider: how often do great OC's/DC's get their due credit for being essentially the major reason why those teams, led by a bigger-name HC, have quick turnarounds but most MSM sports outlets don't lavish praise on them so much, but their larger-then-life HC whose got more charisma, personality, charm?

Sure, you have a few examples of larger-then-life assistant coaches, OC's and DC's like Kyle Shanahan, Buddy Ryan, Jerry Glanville originally with Atlanta Falcons "Gritz Blitz" defense of the late 70's-early 80's, but, in some cases, even if you have really good OC's/DC's, they might not get the credit they deserve because they lack the glitzy, over-the-top, passionate, strong-willed remarkable personalities of Dan Campbell, Sean Payton.

Sometimes, you can be the smartest person in the room and everyone, if not mostly everyone knows it, but if you don't seem "corporate", " saavy", "sophisticated" and have enough of image, charisma, and communication skills, it doesn't matter how much your ideas help the company make billions, they'll keep you around, sure, make you an executive, but you'll never be the top guy on the corporate latter. It's the process of image winning out over intellectual substance but image still relying on intelligence to survive and create enormous profit returns.

Dennis Allen might be a decent-to-good "ideas guy" but he's not someone who can run a billion-dollar multi-national corporation much less be the public face for it.

 

[Saintman2884]

Lipstick on a pig. It's not unusual for the the offense and defense to operate in different worlds, so to speak, but usually, the HC is the "alpha." You're basically saying Allen is weak (beta, as they say in the manosphere), and he needs an enforcer to put a fire under people's butts. This is not about personality because there have been laid-back cerebral coaches (Dungy, Gibbs, for example). Allen doesn't earn people's respect, and that's a deeper issue. We need to blow it up, but since that's not happening, let's order some lipstick for the pig.

Some NFL or NCAAF OC's/DC's are excellent, great at designing, creating new offensive systems, approaches, innovative creative ways at making one side of the ball better but their great from an intellectual standpoint, not the gritty, nasty, rough-and-tumble atmosphere where guys like Dan Campbell, Nick Saban, Buddy Ryan communicated and transferred these ideas on a relatable level to these same players.

Past, laidback, cerebral HC's like Joe Gibbs, Tony Dungy usually employed people during their tenures who would be the butt crevasses or possessed that passionate, in-your-face, confrontational attitude that got their ideas across for them. For Tony Dungy, it was Lane Kiffin. For Joe Gibbs, it was Joe Bugel or Richie Pettibone.

Tom Landry, Bud Grant worked from essentially the same model, too. They werent required or expected to be the butt crevasses to their players, they had assistants, other alpha-male players, like Randy White, Harvey Martin and Charlie Waters who did it for them.

 

[Saint KayBee]

We saw it here 15 years ago: Sean Payton told Gregg Williams to run the entirety of the defense, which he did with most of the same guys Gary Gibbs couldn’t achieve with. The 2009 Saints added two major free agents that offseason: (redacted) and Jabari Greer, and made two injury replacements: Remi Ayodele, who’d had eight total tackles entering the 2009 season, in for Kendrick Clancy; and healthy Tracy Porter back for 2009 in place of ineffective Jason David. Greer’s acquisition allowed Randall Gay to move back to nickel CB in rotation with rookie Malcolm Jenkins (who also took some snaps at safety, which became his permanent position in 2011).

The 2024 Saints aren’t going to be able to go get seven new starters on offense, the way the 2006 Saints did (those new starters: Brees, Colston, Mark Campbell, Nesbit, Faine, Evans, Stinchcomb). What they’ll need to identify and hire, is a coordinator who is confident he can win primarily with the guys already on this team, plus what will most likely be some smaller-scale additions in free agency/the draft.

 

[tenordas]

Interesting read, but kind of a bizarre example. The Ditka/Ryan relationship was a train wreck from the beginning, mostly (IMHO) because Buddy Ryan was a psycho, same guy who later punched Kevin Gilbride on the sidelines during a game when they were coordinators for the Oilers (and there were reports of Ryan and Ditka having to be held off of each other multiple times during practices during their Bears' tenure as well). Buddy also publicly criticized Gilbride's run and shoot offense. He was poison to that team. I wouldn't want that kind of animosity going on in practice and games day in/day out. Yes, the Bears won the Super Bowl in 1985, but that team was loaded and probably should have won more. I know some claim Ryan leaving for the Eagles in 1986 was what kept them from winning more, but the guy was certifiably nuts (and if that was really the case, how come the Eagles didn't start dominating the NFL?). I can't help but think that it took so long for them to get to the Super Bowl because of all the bickering that was going on from 81-84 between Ryan and Ditka.

KleinBottle's comparison of CSP and Greg Williams is a better comparison. I'm big for delegation, so I think a head ought to be relying on the defensive and offensive coordinators to take charge of their respective sides of the ball. That was the case for many of the great head coaches back in the day. In this age of ego-maniacs like Saban and Bellicheck winning by doing it all themselves and largely stifling their assistants, it seems like that sort of accountability and trust has become the outlier instead of the norm, but I'm probably overstating it.

DA just isn't a head coach. He's been a terrific defensive coordinator, but both here and with the Raiders, he's never shown the skill set or personality to be the top man in charge.

 

[SaintswonSBXLIV]

We saw it here 15 years ago: Sean Payton told Gregg Williams to run the entirety of the defense, which he did with most of the same guys Gary Gibbs couldn’t achieve with. The 2009 Saints added two major free agents that offseason: (redacted) and Jabari Greer, and made two injury replacements: Remi Ayodele, who’d had eight total tackles entering the 2009 season, in for Kendrick Clancy; and healthy Tracy Porter back for 2009 in place of ineffective Jason David. Greer’s acquisition allowed Randall Gay to move back to nickel CB in rotation with rookie Malcolm Jenkins (who also took some snaps at safety, which became his permanent position in 2011).

The 2024 Saints aren’t going to be able to go get seven new starters on offense, the way the 2006 Saints did (those new starters: Brees, Colston, Mark Campbell, Nesbit, Faine, Evans, Stinchcomb). What they’ll need to identify and hire, is a coordinator who is confident he can win primarily with the guys already on this team, plus what will most likely be some smaller-scale additions in free agency/the draft.

Anthony Hargrove was an effective addition to the 2009 team too.

 

[IceHot]

Can anyone think of a team in recent memory that had a subordinate that was a superior leader to the head coach where the head coach survived?

Not recent memory...

But I do think Jim Lee Howell was a great coach that should be in the Hall of Fame. He had perhaps the greatest coaching staff in the history of the NFL in Lombardi and Landry. Landry played for Howell as a player as well as playing for Howell's predecessor and HoFer Steve Owen where he learned to be a great coach, but it was Howell that got Landry to complete the transition from player to coach.

Howell was still pretty successful even after both left.

Howell was awesome but also a super rare breed of a coach, not sure anything like that will ever happen again.

 

[Elvis]

Not recent memory...

But I do think Jim Lee Howell was a great coach that should be in the Hall of Fame. He had perhaps the greatest coaching staff in the history of the NFL in Lombardi and Landry. Landry played for Howell as a player as well as playing for Howell's predecessor and HoFer Steve Owen where he learned to be a great coach, but it was Howell that got Landry to complete the transition from player to coach.

Howell was still pretty successful even after both left.

Howell was awesome but also a super rare breed of a coach, not sure anything like that will ever happen again.

Right. I don't know much about the 1954-1960 NY Giants, but if you have to go back 65 years then it's really not a thing that happens. More of an anomaly from the past.

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

Anthony Hargrove was an effective addition to the 2009 team too.

He got injured on the play directly before Porter's pick 6 in the Super Bowl. I wonder if he was faking it in order to set that play up?

 

[IceHot]

Right. I don't know much about the 1954-1960 NY Giants, but if you have to go back 65 years then it's really not a thing that happens. More of an anomaly from the past.

I think it speaks a lot to how great a coach Jim Lee Howell was. Before Belichick went on his Championship tear I went on record as saying that Jim Lee Howell and Steve Owen might have been two of 10 coaches* better than Belichick. Im probably wrong about that but I will never stop being impressed by leaders that can empower those around them and help to make them the best they can be, hoping the student will some day outclass the master.

* 10 Coaches better than Belichick

 

[Doug B]

I think it speaks a lot to how great a coach Jim Lee Howell was. Before Belichick went on his Championship tear I went on record as saying that Jim Lee Howell and Steve Owen might have been two of 10 coaches* better than Belichick. I'm probably wrong about that but I will never stop being impressed by leaders that can empower those around them and help to make them the best they can be, hoping the student will some day outclass the master.

* 10 Coaches better than Belichick

Tom Landry might have been the last true player-coach in the NFL. He played safety and punted for the 1954 and 1955 Giants AND at the same time was the team's defensive coordinator. Further: Landry invented the 4-3 defense during these years while still a player -- he had the Giants' nose tackle in the previous 5-2 defense stand up, take a few steps back, and line up with the linebackers.

This 1973 Texas Monthly article was a great read about Landry and his time coaching alongside Howell and Lombardi (scroll down about halfway to the giant capital "L" - "Lombardi and Landry were guiding forces behind the great New York Giants’ teams of the Fifties ..."). It's the kind of bygone-era sportswriting that's rarely seen these days.

Tom Landry: Melting the Plastic Man

Behind the mask is a man of God, a man devoted to the all-American goal of winning the all-American game as few have done before him.

www.texasmonthly.com

 

[Doug B]

I don't know much about the 1954-1960 NY Giants, but if you have to go back 65 years then it's really not a thing that happens. More of an anomaly from the past.

While true ... if the Saints are insistent on sticking with Dennis Allen, they might have to dust off some old ideas about team management to make the team successful on the field. Might not need a full-fledged Buddy Ryan type to run roughshod ... but maybe one (or both) coordinator(s) that have better people skills and can insulate the players from Allen's worst deficiencies? Just kind of spitballing here ... trying to figure out how to creatively make a gourmet meal out of random sub-optimal ingredients.