Saints 29th in run defense on the edges (1 Viewer)

LSSpam

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9th against the run up the middle.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl.php

5.23 YPC Outside LT - 29th
4.70 YPC Inside LT - 18th
3.89 YPC Middle - 9th
3.01 YPC Inside RT - 4th
5.60 YPC Outside RT - 29th


For references sack. Grant plays LDE, Will Smith RDE, Fujita and Shanle move around but Fujita plays more often on the Left side and Shanle on the Right side.

Well....obviously our MLB Simoneau is the problem :dunno: -insert Danny Clark clamouring here-
 

shrike3000

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Interesting. Do you think LB speed is the problem or something with our Ends?
 
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Super Dad

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Man it is hard to believe we fixed the run up the middle and now we can't stop it on the edges but our Lbrs have to step up and push these guys to the sidelind or make them cut back.
 
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LSSpam

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Interesting. Do you think its LB speed is the problem or something with our Ends?
I actually think LB speed is an issue. Both of our DEs are known as solid run defenders. We don't have a bunch of Simeon Rices. Sometimes its hard to tell from the TV feed, but I know vs Atlanta (since i've only watched that game like 4 times :ezbill: ) the DEs had awesome containment. I suspect it's not them.

So yes, probably LB playmaking ability. And actually Simoneau IS part of the problem. The reason why I mocked the Danny Clark threads though is Danny Clark is NOT a sideline-to-sideline defender, he's an inside run stuffer, and we're strong up the middle. So Danny Clark doesn't represent a solution.

Patrick Willis on the other hand.... :scratch:


This may be a real problem against the Steelers. Willie Parker is way better outside then he is inside.

Edit - To qualify. By "speed" I mean "football speed". Our LBs are athletic but may be slow to diagnosis the run outside or take bad angles or what have you, resulting in them playing "slow".
 
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shrike3000

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I actually think LB speed is an issue. Both of our DEs are known as solid run defenders. We don't have a bunch of Simeon Rices. Sometimes its hard to tell from the TV feed, but I know vs Atlanta (since i've only watched that game like 4 times :ezbill: ) the DEs had awesome containment. I suspect it's not them.

So yes, probably LB playmaking ability. And actually Simoneau IS part of the problem. The reason why I mocked the Danny Clark threads though is Danny Clark is NOT a sideline-to-sideline defender, he's an inside run stuffer, and we're strong up the middle. So Danny Clark doesn't represent a solution.

Patrick Willis on the other hand.... :scratch:


This may be a real problem against the Steelers. Willie Parker is way better outside then he is inside.

Edit - To qualify. By "speed" I mean "football speed". Our LBs are athletic but may be slow to diagnosis the run outside or take bad angles or what have you, resulting in them playing "slow".
I value the analysis. I had noticed we were good at run stopping except on the outside and I wasnt quite sure what the issue might be. I was thinking LB speed as well.

Willie Parker scares me but I think they may focus on the pass game anyhow.
 
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LSSpam

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Do our corners have a problem diagnosing the run? I wonder what it was before Harper went down?
I first picked up on the problem the Carolina game. We had great success stopping the run the first 3 games, then late vs Carolina they started breaking runs wide. Tampa evidently saw that and came out with a gameplan to attack our edges, especially in the first quarter. So Roman Harper is still in then.

I also don't suspect it's the CBs. Fred Thomas and Mike McKenzie aren't exactly shrinking violets. McKenzie especially has, to my eye, looked good against the run.

The problem has to be the LBs.
 

Speck Killer

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Wow! That blows my mind that they have stats broken down to the hole level.
 

bclemms

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Does this include runs by QB's? We have faced a lot of mobile QB's in Frye, Vick, Gradkowski, McNabb, McNair and Gradkowski again and that could really change the stats because mobile QB's tend to have much higher YPC average than RB's. The other thing is we have faced a lot of smaller backs. Droughns and Lewis are the only two big backs we have faced.

One thing I have noticed about Fujita is that he will lose gap responsibility and tries to make plays. The last thing is the long run by Foster could make the yards per attempt look much worse than it is. I don't think teams have tried running to the left side of our defense because it is pretty solid, it would really help if they showed rushing attempts to each side with the stats.

Grant is one of the best DE's in the NFL against the run and I can't imagine he is the problem, especially when looking at runs inside RT.
 
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LSSpam

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Does this include runs by QB's? We have faced a lot of mobile QB's in Frye, Vick, Gradkowski, McNabb, McNair and Gradkowski again and that could really change the stats because mobile QB's tend to have much higher YPC average than RB's. The other thing is we have faced a lot of smaller backs. Droughns and Lewis are the only two big backs we have faced.

One thing I have noticed about Fujita is that he will lose gap responsibility and tries to make plays. The last thing is the long run by Foster could make the yards per attempt look much worse than it is. I don't think teams have tried running to the left side of our defense because it is pretty solid, it would really help if they showed rushing attempts to each side with the stats.

Grant is one of the best DE's in the NFL against the run and I can't imagine he is the problem, especially when looking at runs inside RT.
No QB has had big runs against us or many yards. Vick had 1 30 yarder and Frye had 44 yards, but that's really been it. It doesn't skew things.

Secondly, DeShaun Foster and Carnell Williams, the two who first exposed the edges of our run defense, are not "small" backs. Westbrook, the only truly small type back we've faced, we actually handled pretty good.
 

blackadder

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No QB has had big runs against us or many yards. Vick had 1 30 yarder and Frye had 44 yards, but that's really been it. It doesn't skew things.

Secondly, DeShaun Foster and Carnell Williams, the two who first exposed the edges of our run defense, are not "small" backs. Westbrook, the only truly small type back we've faced, we actually handled pretty good.
Think Gary Gibbs is clued in to this?
 
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LSSpam

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Think Gary Gibbs is clued in to this?
Well i'm sure he has to be. Again, after Tampa really keyed in on our edges the first time they played us (and almost won) we came back against Philly, who I thought would just abuse us with Westbrook outside, and handled Westbrook ok.

Westbrook was like 16 for 75, but he didn't break anything big and didn't "alter" the game.

So maybe you'll see something similiar vs the Steelers where Willie Parker isn't much of an inside runner. So we'll key outside a lot more, try to contain him there. And maybe it'll work just as well as it did vs Philly (I expect the game to have a LOT of similiarities to the Philly game except we arent at home and the Steelers make a lot more mistakes).

But it's going to be a problem if we ever face a real running back who can go outside and inside. Carolina is still a problem later in the year, they have good all-around backs. The Giants may be a huge problem for us. Dallas could give us trouble. It's something to watch out for.
 

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The MLB position plays a role in defending the run on the edge too.. OLBs are contain guys... they force the play back inside... where your MLB is supposed to flow to the ball. DEs are also responsible for containment... but if they get crack-backed (which is normal) then your OLBs should contain. I still say we need an upgrade at MLB.
 

guillermo

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Grant has improved greatly in his run coverage. But one of his problems in previous seasons is his lack of discipline covering his territory on run plays. He has improved but still I think he jumps too early towards the middle of the backfield. If there is no coordination with the covering linebacker. Then we are in trouble.

I haven't been careful to study the coordination between Grant and Fujita. I am not sure if Fujita is covering when Grant attacks, or if Grant keeps position when Fujita is in coverage. Some point to study in the next games.

Against the steelers, I think the gameplan of the defense will be similar to the one against the falcons. Trying to keep coverage from the outiside and press by the middle. Roethlisberger tends to lose his cool when he is hit early.

BTW, great new topic LSSpam, a fresh good discussion in a very repetitive forum these days.
 

bclemms

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No QB has had big runs against us or many yards. Vick had 1 30 yarder and Frye had 44 yards, but that's really been it. It doesn't skew things.

Secondly, DeShaun Foster and Carnell Williams, the two who first exposed the edges of our run defense, are not "small" backs. Westbrook, the only truly small type back we've faced, we actually handled pretty good.
Fry had 6 carries for 44 yards, Farve had 0 attempts, Vick had 6 rushes for 57 yards, Delhomme had 3 rushes for -3 yards, Bradkowski had 8 for 31 in his two games against us, McNabb didn't have a rush attempt and McNair had 5 for 23 yards.

This would equal 28 rushes for 152 yards or 5.4 yards per carry. This year we have had 203 rushing attempts against us netting 923 yards for a 4.5 ypc average. If you subtract the runs by QB's then you get 175 attempts for 771 yards and a 4.4 yards per carry average. In other words QB's are running for 1 yard per carry more than RB's and WR's If the big runs came from the outside and the small runs came up the middle then it would make a dramatic difference, especially if the other teams don't have many rushing attempts to the outside. This also doesn't include rushing by WR's on reverses, like the one by Reggie Brown. I'm not saying that these stats don't paint a good picture but that the numbers could look much different if they showed attempts.

As far as Foster, Green and Cadillac you are correct they aren't small backs. I should have said they aren't power backs and rely more on speed (typically better outside runners). Droughns and Lewis are the only downhill power backs we have faced.
 

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