School Responsibilities (1 Viewer)

[mjcouvi]

There’s too much discussion in here from people who know financial literacy- I’m here to fix that
First let me address the ‘shirtiness’ of human nature and how it relates to the discussion
Hard disagree- human nature is built on tribal development and complex cooperation- ‘shirtiness’ is learned and the chief teacher is power imbalance- how to get/keep power
Obviously wealth is a significant tool in that lesson
Could you ‘teach’ an honest financial literacy class without also explaining how the system is rigged? (Could you teach financial literacy in an anti-CRT state? Florida says yes, I’m not sure)

plus consider those classes would be taught be teachers and if we were good at financial literacy we wouldn’t be teachers…

BUT, I’ve always been an advocate that practice is better than theory- why not give each kid $500 (or whatever amount) at the beginning of freshman year - an incentivize ways to grow/keep that money

Why not give each kid $500? Because you don’t want to make $500 so much closer to worthless, that’s why.

 

[sammymvpknight]

I hope it’s a freshman-sophomore level course. By the time senior year roles around it’ll probably be too late for many students.

This is a no brainer

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Why not give each kid $500? Because you don’t want to make $500 so much closer to worthless, that’s why.

Um…huh?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Yep. My daughter is in her freshman year at U.N.O. studying Electrical Engineering. She had the grades to get into places like the University of Texas and certainly would have gotten into any of the SEC schools, but she ended up at U.N.O. because she is getting paid to go there by U.N.O. She got a free ride and then she gets a book stipend. She talked about going to LSU because some friends went there and going away to school was cooler than living with mom and dad, but in the end she decided (with help from the wife and I) that U.N.O. made the most sense because she would get her B.S. with zero debt. That would either let her start out adult life with no debt at that point or go to a better grad school assuming she got the grades to go.

I am so far behind financially because I didn't understand how big a deal student loan debt is to accumulate. It seemed like free money in college, grad school, and even law school, but I know better now. My parent's didn't know any better. They just thought you had to get a college degree to succeed and made sure all their kids got one. Neither of them had one so they had no idea what having all that student loan debt would do to my financial future.

We’re having that discussion with my oldest right now. Virginia had this great program where you can go to community college for two years and then transfer in to any Virginia public university. Which means he could get a degree from UVA for basically half price. He would miss out on all the great freshman year stuff, which is great. But is it worth $70k?

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

. But is it worth $70k?

If it’s all you can drink then maybe

 

[mjcouvi]

Um…huh?

Apologies, sometimes I make giant leaps and ignore common sense.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

First let me address the ‘shirtiness’ of human nature and how it relates to the discussion
Hard disagree- human nature is built on tribal development and complex cooperation- ‘shirtiness’ is learned and the chief teacher is power imbalance- how to get/keep power

Ummmm, exactly??? Because, throughout the course of human history, which type of human almost always leads the tribe and instructs and is followed by the others? (Hint: it's the sheetty kind)

I mean, are we really in hard disagreement?

On the flip side, I don't get the folks who get super down and depressed (NB: I'm not referring to clinical depression) about the crappiness that still abounds in human society -- especially those folks who don't believe in an "Involved Creator". Of all people, they should understand that humans are nothing special in the world -- just highly evolved animals. Non-religious folks should be absolutely gobsmacked at the amazing capacity of humans to be kind and altruistic.

The number of humans on the planet who don't live in squalor wallowing in their own sheet is at its peak in human history. That should be celebrated, not moaned over just because we now have social media which bombards us with the horribleness of humankind 24/7. It's actually the good times -- perhaps we just don't want to acknowledge just how truly crappy the last quarter-million years have been for our species.

 

[St. Widge]

Ummmm, exactly??? Because, throughout the course of human history, which type of human almost always leads the tribe and instructs and is followed by the others? (Hint: it's the sheetty kind)

I mean, are we really in hard disagreement?

On the flip side, I don't get the folks who get super down and depressed (NB: I'm not referring to clinical depression) about the crappiness that still abounds in human society -- especially those folks who don't believe in an "Involved Creator". Of all people, they should understand that humans are nothing special in the world -- just highly evolved animals. Non-religious folks should be absolutely gobsmacked at the amazing capacity of humans to be kind and altruistic.

The number of humans on the planet who don't live in squalor wallowing in their own sheet is at its peak in human history. That should be celebrated, not moaned over just because we now have social media which bombards us with the horribleness of humankind 24/7. It's actually the good times -- perhaps we just don't want to acknowledge just how truly crappy the last quarter-million years have been for our species.

Can't be gobsmacked if you don't believe in god. And, frankly, humans are seldom ever particularly kind or act for the good of others. It's of no evolutionary advantage to act kind those those not in your tribe and the only reason to act kind to those in your tribe is to gain power over them.

And, honestly, I don't think true Altruism actually exists. People do good things because they are to their own advantage or because they make them feel good. It's not out of some true desire to help others. Truly selfless acts may happen on occasion, but they are exceedingly rare and certainly not the norm.

And the fact that we are where we are as a society now is due to people acting in that self-interest and realizing that in order to really improve your standard of living, you have to also raise the standard of living of those around you. Your boat rises on the tide and falls on the same tide. And that is the reason we left the state of nature and agreed to live in societies with rules. They raise the quality of life for everyone. Some more than others based on luck, effort, and any number of other factors.

 

[St. Widge]

Hard disagree- human nature is built on tribal development and complex cooperation- ‘shirtiness’ is learned and the chief teacher is power imbalance- how to get/keep power
Obviously wealth is a significant tool in that lesson

Hard disagree with your hard disagree. Humans forming tribes was a result of how sheetty we were to each other. You joined a tribe for protection from others and so that you could survive when everyone out there was being sheetty to you. Our nature is to be sheetty. Tribes/cultures/societies are there to curb those sheetty tendencies. That's clear because whenever society breaks down, the sheettiness comes out again.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Hard disagree with your hard disagree. Humans forming tribes was a result of how sheetty we were to each other. You joined a tribe for protection from others and so that you could survive when everyone out there was being sheetty to you. Our nature is to be sheetty. Tribes/cultures/societies are there to curb those sheetty tendencies. That's clear because whenever society breaks down, the sheettiness comes out again.

before we go further maybe could you and/or Houston define shirty human behavior? let's just clarify terms

 

[HoustonSaint68]

And, honestly, I don't think true Altruism actually exists. People do good things because they are to their own advantage or because they make them feel good. It's not out of some true desire to help others.

Well, that's the old Philosophy 101 argument and, while it's not logically incorrect, I still view kindness and altruism as being those conscious acts to help fellow living beings on our shared blue marble, that don't inure to the physical benefit of ourselves or our family "tribe".

Yes, there are sporadic acts of selfless kindness elsewhere in the animal kingdom, but not with the frequency or complexity that humans do for others. That said, we kill other living beings in spectacularly complex ways, so there is that gapingly exposed flank in my argument....

 

[St. Widge]

before we go further maybe could you and/or Houston define shirty human behavior? let's just clarify terms

Acting in self-interest without regard for others unless it also benefits you is more or less how I would define sheety behavior.

 

[St. Widge]

Well, that's the old Philosophy 101 argument and, while it's not logically incorrect, I still view kindness and altruism as being those conscious acts to help fellow living beings on our shared blue marble, that don't inure to the physical benefit of ourselves or our family "tribe".

Yes, there are sporadic acts of selfless kindness elsewhere in the animal kingdom, but not with the frequency or complexity that humans do for others. That said, we kill other living beings in spectacularly complex ways, so there is that gapingly exposed flank in my argument....

I'd argue that it's Philosophy 101 because it's more or less irrefutable since it is logically correct.

But, I'll give you that people will sometimes act in kindness or for the benefit of others even if the benefit to them is very small. And, frankly, I'm not sure that the difference between true Altruism and kind of Altruism is all that important as the results are more or less the same.

Oddly, despite my belief that humans more or less always act in their own self-interest, I'm actually fairly optimistic that we as a species can improve. I just tend to think those improvements will generally result from selfish motives which I think is okay as I don't think motive necessarily determines morality or is a practically bad idea.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

before we go further maybe could you and/or Houston define shirty human behavior? let's just clarify terms

Yeah, that's why I don't think we're in hard disagreement -- I think it's just semantics.

My original point was in the context of capitalism and (mixed) free markets being the economic system which provides the greatest level of collective human benefit, relative to all the others, because it channels the negative aspects of human nature more efficiently to the greatest common good, relative to all the others.

So, recognizing that brevity in this case likely raises many more questions than it answers:

- Traditional: worse because of human nature
- Command: worse because of human nature
- Free Market: worse because of human nature

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Acting in self-interest without regard for others unless it also benefits you is more or less how I would define sheety behavior.

then hard disagree about your hard disagree about my hard disagree - most any psych/sociological experiment will show we're fundamentally social/cooperative. in fact it's hard to imagine our species surviving if we were fundamentally self-interested (basic biology couldn't give 2 farts about the individual, it's built on diversifying the gene pool to ensure adaptability and thus survival) - and supposedly we can live in a fairly egalitarian tribe of up to about 75 or so people (maybe even 200+)
it seems like our big social shift was cultivating grain which allowed us to harvest then store it - at that point, the tribe not only needs 'soldiers' to help defend from outside forces, but also 'police' to protect assets from inside