2005 Arizona Cardinal (1 Viewer)

bclemms

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This is what the Saints are reminding me of the past few games. Last year the Cardinals had the young stud WR's, they could throw the ball on anybody, they struggled to run the ball and turned the ball over. On defense they would look good for 1-2 quarters then would give up a couple big plays.

When I am watching the Saints play I am always confident that opposing teams can't stop our passing attack but at only one point this season have I watched the game and thought to myself, "this game is over they can't stop the run." That one time this seaon was the first game against the Bucs and what did we do during the 2nd half? Run Deuce like 6 times, throw the ball a bunch and let the Bucs back in the game.

I started a couple threads during the preseason about Payton being too stubborn to run the ball. Some of you might remember the thread "We might as well cut Deuce and Bush" being sarcastic saying if we don't use them then are just taking up cap room and roster spots.

I love what Payton has done for this team, city and even region since coming here. I love the fact we have a QB that can throw for 500 yards. I love having an offense that other teams can't stop but I hope Payton can do the toughest thing for any coach to do, change.

Payton's offense is very effective and I think he has the mindset that we have to score everytime we have the ball because our defense is not teh good. If he changes his mindset and runs the football then it helps our defense, it helps our passing game, it limits turnovers and negative plays and it will help us win.

I know we could be great and have won every game if we didn't turn the ball over. If you look back through the history of the NFL then I challenge anyone to find a team that had a lethal passing offense and didn't turn the ball over. I know the idea of keeping the passing game wide open and not turning the ball over is great but we have tried fixing the turnovers and that has not worked, now it is time to fix the root of the problem.

I look forward to seeing how Payton handles this during our 4 game win streak.
 
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robsmith32

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not arguing, the fact we need to get the running game going, but deuce and reggie both fumbled on runs.. granted, the passes caught and fumbled have passed that amount up and certainly the INT's..
I finally actually noticed deuce in the game and not being handed to for the defense to be able to just key in on , if deuce is back there, he's gettin it.

I do believe they are planning long term though.. Deuce isn't 100% he's "OK" as they say.
I question if Deuce is Hurting more than is being made public, so defenses still have to be honest.
Looks like today, coach was holding him for later in the game for when the defense was a bit worn down from chasing everyone allday to use him. which is always when he made his BIG runs. But when they went up by 2 touchdowns in the 4th.. out that idea went.
 

birdog

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This is what the Saints are reminding me of the past few games. Last year the Cardinals had the young stud WR's, they could throw the ball on anybody, they struggled to run the ball and turned the ball over. On defense they would look good for 1-2 quarters then would give up a couple big plays.

When I am watching the Saints play I am always confident that opposing teams can't stop our passing attack but at only one point this season have I watched the game and thought to myself, "this game is over they can't stop the run." That one time this seaon was the first game against the Bucs and what did we do during the 2nd half? Run Deuce like 6 times, throw the ball a bunch and let the Bucs back in the game.

I started a couple threads during the preseason about Payton being too stubborn to run the ball. Some of you might remember the thread "We might as well cut Deuce and Bush" being sarcastic saying if we don't use them then are just taking up cap room and roster spots.

I love what Payton has done for this team, city and even region since coming here. I love the fact we have a QB that can throw for 500 yards. I love having an offense that other teams can't stop but I hope Payton can do the toughest thing for any coach to do, change.

Payton's offense is very effective and I think he has the mindset that we have to score everytime we have the ball because our defense is not teh good. If he changes his mindset and runs the football then it helps our defense, it helps our passing game, it limits turnovers and negative plays and it will help us win.

I know we could be great and have won every game if we didn't turn the ball over. If you look back through the history of the NFL then I challenge anyone to find a team that had a lethal passing offense and didn't turn the ball over. I know the idea of keeping the passing game wide open and not turning the ball over is great but we have tried fixing the turnovers and that has not worked, now it is time to fix the root of the problem.

I look forward to seeing how Payton handles this during our 4 game win streak.
Sorry to disagree, bclemms but there is a very good reason (actually 2 good reasons) why we ain't running the ball effectively......and our problem lies with our Ds performance.....good running teams RELY on GOOD D......no running team is successful behind a bad D, and our D is well below average!.....and our OL does not run-block well!

So we need to pass more in order to COMPENSATE our subpar defensive performance, which is MAGNIFIED by our below average D.....1) we can't run the ball effectively, by being behind on the scoreboard most of the time.....and that happens on a regular basis, especially lately (last 2 games are losses, when we fell behind early) so we pass more to catch up......2) also, our OL isn't run-blocking well, which puts the O in an inferior position, on 3rd down plays......so we must pass especially when we're in 3rd and long situations, which happens more and more lately.....and that is the main reason that we're looking more and more like a one dimentional team.....the good news is, our passing game is clicking nicely, and that bails the O out regularly!
 
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bclemms

bclemms

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Sorry to disagree, bclemms but there is a very good reason (actually 2 good reasons) why we ain't running the ball effectively......and our problem lies with our Ds performance.....good running teams RELY on GOOD D......no running team is successful behind a bad D, and our D is well below average!.....and our OL does not run-block well!
That is not even close to true. The Kansas City Chiefs are the perfect example. They may have a decent defense this year but from 2000-2004 they were terrible and in 2005 they were bad on D. Their rushing offense was close to the top of the league every one of those years. The Seahawks had a terrible defense during those same years and they were great running the ball. Deuce in 2002-2004 was tearing up the ground game but I don't think Venturi's D was holding up their end of the deal. The Chargers running game has been very good over the past few years and their defense was pretty weak up until the last season and a half. There are plenty more examples.

So we need to pass more in order to COMPENSATE our subpar defensive performance, which is MAGNIFIED by our below average D.....1) we can't run the ball effectively, by being behind on the scoreboard most of the time.....and that happens on a regular basis, especially lately (last 2 games are losses, when we fell behind early) so we pass more to catch up......2) also, our OL isn't run-blocking well, which puts the O in an inferior position, on 3rd down plays......so we must pass especially when we're in 3rd and long situations, which happens more and more lately.....and that is the main reason that we're looking more and more like a one dimentional team.....the good news is, our passing game is clicking nicely, and that bails the O out regularly!
We aren't running the ball in the first half when the game is tied or we are winning so throw that out the window. Every game we got behind more than a TD it was due to turnovers, mostly either interceptions or sacks resulting in fumbles so that isn't a good argument. Our oline has run blocked great at times. We were blowing Philly off the line like they were getting shot out of a cannon and during the first Bucs game I could have driven my truck through the holes. Some games they have not looked good but how did Pittsburg's line look in the first half against us last week? Many, many RB's have bad first halfs but put up big numbers in the second half because of the lines wearing down the defense, our line does not get that chance.
 

birdog

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That is not even close to true. The Kansas City Chiefs are the perfect example. They may have a decent defense this year but from 2000-2004 they were terrible and in 2005 they were bad on D. Their rushing offense was close to the top of the league every one of those years. The Seahawks had a terrible defense during those same years and they were great running the ball. Deuce in 2002-2004 was tearing up the ground game but I don't think Venturi's D was holding up their end of the deal. The Chargers running game has been very good over the past few years and their defense was pretty weak up until the last season and a half. There are plenty more examples.



We aren't running the ball in the first half when the game is tied or we are winning so throw that out the window. Every game we got behind more than a TD it was due to turnovers, mostly either interceptions or sacks resulting in fumbles so that isn't a good argument. Our oline has run blocked great at times. We were blowing Philly off the line like they were getting shot out of a cannon and during the first Bucs game I could have driven my truck through the holes. Some games they have not looked good but how did Pittsburg's line look in the first half against us last week? Many, many RB's have bad first halfs but put up big numbers in the second half because of the lines wearing down the defense, our line does not get that chance.

Are you comparing the KCs OL to the Saints OL?....I would run behind the KC OL too, with Priest Holmes, or Larry Johnson.....but I tell you that the KC offense was a pretty darn good PASSING OFFENSE WHICH BAILED OUT THE RUNNING GAME, when they got in trouble!....and so was the Seahawks offense as well!....comparing their OL with the Saints OL IS UNFAIR, and is not even close!

But when it comes to the D they both FAILED in POSTSEASON for their lack of a GOOD D, and only after the Hawks REBUILDT THEIR D did they started TASTING real success!

Let me tell you one example bclemms, which happened to KC after PH got hurt.....what do you think KC did when they lost P Holmes??....(remember, Larry Johnson wasn't a star yet, and nobody had a clue who he was).....so what did KC do after they lost Holmes??

They went out and signed a WR!......after they lost their star RB, Dick Vermeil went out and replaced him with a WR!!.....HARDLY A LOGICAL CHOICE!! or was it?.....what were his reasoning?

he figured that by losing Holmes, there was a better chance for a snowball in hell to find another GREAT RB ON THE STREETS, so he knew that in order to remain competitive THE PASSING GAME HAS TO PRODUCE MORE, AND HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK!!.....so another WR made the perfect sense!

See, the same thing happens to the Saints as we speak.....we have 2 good RBs but NOT MUCH PRODUCTION in the running game.....so THE PASSING GAME HAS TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LACK OF PRODUCTION IN THE RUNNING GAME......hence throwing more makes sense!

WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST HAS NO BEARING WHAT SEAN PAYTON IS THINKING NOW.....right now his team makes lots of mistakes, falls behind early, and his running game isn't working......so his team has to throw more!
 
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bclemms

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Are you comparing the KCs OL to the Saints OL?....I would run behind the KC OL too, with Priest Holmes, or Larry Johnson.....but I tell you that the KC offense was a pretty darn good PASSING OFFENSE WHICH BAILED OUT THE RUNNING GAME, when they got in trouble!....and so was the Seahawks offense as well!....comparing their OL with the Saints OL IS UNFAIR, and is not even close!

But when it comes to the D they both FAILED in POSTSEASON for their lack of a GOOD D, and only after the Hawks REBUILDT THEIR D did they started TASTING real success!

Let me tell you one example bclemms, which happened to KC after PH got hurt.....what do you think KC did when they lost P Holmes??....(remember, Larry Johnson wasn't a star yet, and nobody had a clue who he was).....so what did KC do after they lost Holmes??

They went out and signed a WR!......after they lost their star RB, Dick Vermeil went out and replaced him with a WR!!.....HARDLY A LOGICAL CHOICE!! or was it?.....what were his reasoning?

he figured that by losing Holmes, there was a better chance for a snowball in hell to find another GREAT RB ON THE STREETS, so he knew that in order to remain competitive THE PASSING GAME HAS TO PRODUCE MORE, AND HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK!!.....so another WR made the perfect sense!

See, the same thing happens to the Saints as we speak.....we have 2 good RBs but NOT MUCH PRODUCTION in the running game.....so THE PASSING GAME HAS TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LACK OF PRODUCTION IN THE RUNNING GAME......hence throwing more makes sense!

WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST HAS NO BEARING WHAT SEAN PAYTON IS THINKING NOW.....right now his team makes lots of mistakes, falls behind early, and his running game isn't working......so his team has to throw more!

I agree that the Chiefs and Seahawks line was a better line than we have, I never said that we have a better line. You said that teams can't run the ball with a bad defense. I used the Chiefs as an example becuase for two consecutive years they had the #1 rush offense and the 32 rated defense.

Larry Johnson was hardly a nobody. The guy was a first round pick out of Penn State, he just didn't see the field much because Priest Holmes was in front of him. Much like Deuce when Ricky was here.

Deuce is averaging 4.3 yards per carry. To put that in perspective check out these backs:

Larry Johnson: 4.1 ypc
Steven Jackson: 4.2 ypc
Chester Taylor: 4.1 ypc
Julius Jones: 4.0 ypc
Thomas Jones: 3.8 ypc
Rudi Johnson: 4.0 ypc
Ronnie Brown: 4.0 ypc

Every one of those guys are in the top 15 of the league in rushing, most in the top 10.

Deuce gets better as the game wears on. We all know this and have seen him get better later in games many times over the years. Deuce is not getting enough carries to be effective. Not only does he not get many carries but he is not even on the field half the time. Then you have to keep in mind that a large percentage of his runs come in short yardage situations which hurt his ypc even more. I don't know how good our offensive line is at running blocking, hell none of us know. We simply have not tried to run the ball one time this year. I don't think we have run the ball more than passed it once this season. I don't think there is another team with a winning record that can say that.

I know Reggie hasn't had holes to run through but if he is the problem then get his but in the slot or on the sidelines. I'm not anti Bush or anti Payton I just think he is not giving our line a chance. As a Saints fan I think we should know just how demoralizing it is to have a team run the ball 35 times in a game and not be able to stop them. We don't do that. We have a shaky defense and we challenge teams to shoot outs. It sure is fun to watch but at the end of the day the results are not desirable. In the beginning of the year I could understand that we were throwing more becuase most of the throws were very short and safe, much like a run but in the last few weeks we are taking shots downfield every other play. I think we have to take shots and I like us going downfield a lot but IMO we have to continue to run the ball to keep the downfield passing effective.

I posted this in another thread to put things in perspective. In the Chargers first 7 plays of their game today LT had more rushes than Deuce had in the first 3 quarters of the game. Imagine if they didn't give LT the ball after those 7 runs. LT had 4 TD's after that.
 
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birdog

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I agree that the Chiefs and Seahawks line was a better line than we have, I never said that we have a better line. You said that teams can't run the ball with a bad defense. I used the Chiefs as an example becuase for two consecutive years they had the #1 rush offense and the 32 rated defense.

Larry Johnson was hardly a nobody. The guy was a first round pick out of Penn State, he just didn't see the field much because Priest Holmes was in front of him. Much like Deuce when Ricky was here.

Deuce is averaging 4.3 yards per carry. To put that in perspective check out these backs:

Larry Johnson: 4.1 ypc
Steven Jackson: 4.2 ypc
Chester Taylor: 4.1 ypc
Julius Jones: 4.0 ypc
Thomas Jones: 3.8 ypc
Rudi Johnson: 4.0 ypc
Ronnie Brown: 4.0 ypc

Every one of those guys are in the top 15 of the league in rushing, most in the top 10.

Deuce gets better as the game wears on. We all know this and have seen him get better later in games many times over the years. Deuce is not getting enough carries to be effective. Not only does he not get many carries but he is not even on the field half the time. Then you have to keep in mind that a large percentage of his runs come in short yardage situations which hurt his ypc even more. I don't know how good our offensive line is at running blocking, hell none of us know. We simply have not tried to run the ball one time this year. I don't think we have run the ball more than passed it once this season. I don't think there is another team with a winning record that can say that.

I know Reggie hasn't had holes to run through but if he is the problem then get his but in the slot or on the sidelines. I'm not anti Bush or anti Payton I just think he is not giving our line a chance. As a Saints fan I think we should know just how demoralizing it is to have a team run the ball 35 times in a game and not be able to stop them. We don't do that. We have a shaky defense and we challenge teams to shoot outs. It sure is fun to watch but at the end of the day the results are not desirable. In the beginning of the year I could understand that we were throwing more becuase most of the throws were very short and safe, much like a run but in the last few weeks we are taking shots downfield every other play. I think we have to take shots and I like us going downfield a lot but IMO we have to continue to run the ball to keep the downfield passing effective.

I posted this in another thread to put things in perspective. In the Chargers first 7 plays of their game today LT had more rushes than Deuce had in the first 3 quarters of the game. Imagine if they didn't give LT the ball after those 7 runs. LT had 4 TD's after that.
I don't disagree with Deuce running more......but hear me out....when Reggie has 11 yds all day on the ground, followed by Deuce with 34 yds for the day which happened in one of our game this season, that points not as much to the RB, than to the OL which blocks in front of them!

Why is that a good run stopping D IS MORE SUCCESSFUL, THAN a good OVERALL D?....WHICH IS THE BETTER ONE? A GREAT RUNSTOPPER D, or a good OVERALL D?

The answer is the same with the OL......a run blocking OL IS ALWAYS BETTER than a good OVERALL OL!......BECAUSE TEAMS WIN BY RUNNING THE BALL AND STOPPING THE RUN, which goes back to the structure of almost every team.....teams are built to run the ball, and stop the run......and every time they can't do that CONSISTENTLY.....they find themselves in trouble!

Look at the Saints right now!....Brees throws for 500+ yds....IN A LOSS!!...it would be sacrilegious if that would be just a story.....unfortunately it is true!....problem is....they just can't run worth a lick, so THEY'RE FORCED TO THROW MORE!

In all of this me and you know that it is UNHEALTHY what happens to this excessive throwing........they can't win by throwing only, so your point is a very valid one, and I see it......but there is NO SUCCESS IN OUR RUNNING GAME YET, and Brees pretty much IS FORCED to throw more, even though we all know that is in vain!

I listened to Payton the other week on Sirius talking about being A BALANCED OFFENSE......and he's all for it! if we look at our run/pass ratio, in every game we won, there is almost an equal number of pass and run.......ONLY IN OUR LOSSES IS THE BALANCE TILTED HEAVILY IN FAVOR OF THE PASS!.....the reason is that they fell behind early, AND OUR RUNNING GAME STRUGGLED!
 

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Going down 10-7 early in the 2nd quarter, I reiterate, IS NOT FALLING BEHIND! There's WAY too much football yet to be played for us to become SO PREDICTABLE.

Like bclemms said, TRUE SAINTS FANS remember the days when Deuce would start slow... maybe 35 yards after 10 carries, then EXPLODE for several big gains seemingly back-to-back. These 10 for 40 games would EASILY become 22 for 115 games. It's THERE, we just HAVE TO TRY IT. Instead you people seem to be HAPPY with us throwing to guys like TERRANCE COPPER AND DEVERY HENDERSON!!! Am I REALLY witnessing this??? Are you SERIOUSLY trying to convince me that throwing to DROPPER AND HINDERSON is better than running it with DEUCE AND BUSH?

We're throwing the ball 38.4 times per game now!!! It's preposterous that Deuce has to wait 2, maybe 3 games to get the same amount of rushing attempts! And you people SUPPORT this! Even when we lose! I cannot believe my eyes....
 

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