2020 Saints RB Grades (Via Saints News) {several other positions also rated} (2 Viewers)

[Saintamaniac]

This discussion evolved from the number of sacks that Taysom and Jameis took. They took sacks at rates significantly greater than Brees took. It's a simple stat comparison. There is no reaching or maliciously trying to make other parts of the team look bad. An offensive line is going to appear better when the QB reads the defense well, makes adjustments, and gets the ball out quickly, That isn't really up for debate.

It's very much so up for debate because you are completely discounting the fact that Brees also has one of the highest completion percentages. That doesn't happen simply be getting the ball out quickly because the first read isn't always open.

If the OL was as bad as it's trying to be portrayed, Brees' completion percentage would be a lot lower as he wouldn't have time to go through progressions because he'd be throwing the ball away to avoid sacks and lost yardage. Brees getting rid of the ball quickly reduces the number of sacks taken and adds to the ranking of the OL. Brees having one of the highest completion percentages of all time is a testament to the OL giving him the time to make the necessary reads to find the open man.

Jameis' sack total shouldn't even be factored in considering his playing time. Hill played in 4 full games. He held the ball a very long time resulting in sacks and fumbles. It is one of the knocks against him as a QB along with reading half the field and fumbles.

When someone makes a comment that the #2 ranked OL for the last 2 years is not that good, that is the very definition of reaching trying to make other parts of the team look bad to elevate Brees and it's not necessary.

Brees reads defenses extraordinarily well and a lot times he's able to go through his progressions to hit his 2nd, 3rd and sometimes 4th option. That's a testament to the blocking by the OL; not getting rid of the ball quickly.

 

[BoxerJoe]

It's very much so up for debate because you are completely discounting the fact that Brees also has one of the highest completion percentages. That doesn't happen simply be getting the ball out quickly because the first read isn't always open.

If the OL was as bad as it's trying to be portrayed, Brees' completion percentage would be a lot lower as he wouldn't have time to go through progressions because he'd be throwing the ball away to avoid sacks and lost yardage. Brees getting rid of the ball quickly reduces the number of sacks taken and adds to the ranking of the OL. Brees having one of the highest completion percentages of all time is a testament to the OL giving him the time to make the necessary reads to find the open man.

Jameis' sack total shouldn't even be factored in considering his playing time. Hill played in 4 full games. He held the ball a very long time resulting in sacks and fumbles. It is one of the knocks against him as a QB along with reading half the field and fumbles.

When someone makes a comment that the #2 ranked OL for the last 2 years is not that good, that is the very definition of reaching trying to make other parts of the team look bad to elevate Brees and it's not necessary.

Brees reads defenses extraordinarily well and a lot times he's able to go through his progressions to hit his 2nd, 3rd and sometimes 4th option. That's a testament to the blocking by the OL; not getting rid of the ball quickly.

I never said or implied that Brees' completion percentage happened simply because he got the ball out faster. All other things being equal though, a QB who can read and release quicker than another QB is going to be more favorable in terms of how well the OL is perceived to be playing and how well they are ranked.

Brees had an average (actually slightly worse than average) amount of time to throw the ball this past season.

I acknowledged Winston's small sample size. He got sacked on back-to-back plays from the SF 4 and SF 10 yard lines. Sacks shouldn't be given up on that part of the field regardless.

Go ahead and quote me where I said the OL was "not that good." I questioned if they were "exceptionally good." If you want to say that the bookends are exceptional, I will agree with you; but there is more to the OL than just the tackles. As a complete unit, this year's line was not up to snuff with the OLs of the past due to the interior portion of it. It's nowhere near trying to make others look bad in order to lift Brees up. I genuinely don't know why you are perceiving it that way. Just as Brees can be and has been critiqued, so can all other players/units be critiqued.

 

[Saint Taysom]

Is the offensive line really exceptionally good or did Brees just help make them look that way?

Winston got sacked twice in the half of football that he played against the 49ers. And he only made 10 pass attempts. It's a small sample size, but it's a rate greater than Taysom got sacked and speaks on the true quality of the offensive line.

The offensive line learned to tailor their pass protection to Brees and his timing and quick reads. When a new QB is back there, adjustments have to be made. Brees certainly helped the O-line, but it’s still a very good unit

 

[Goatman Saint]

The offensive line learned to tailor their pass protection to Brees and his timing and quick reads. When a new QB is back there, adjustments have to be made. Brees certainly helped the O-line, but it’s still a very good unit

This is extremely important to remember. Brees is a very pure pocket QB who operates in a pocket, generally close behind the center of the offensive line. Which is why DTs that can collapse the center were his problem. Because of this the tackles simply ran the DEs wide and around. Winston has a longer drop back and isn’t so much a pocket QB. The tackles will have to adjust their game because what worked for Brees lands the DEs in Winstons lap. Hill just can’t get rid of the dang ball.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Go ahead and quote me where I said the OL was "not that good." I questioned if they were "exceptionally good."

I won't quote you because I never alleged that you said that. My quote below clearly illustrates that.

It just makes me wonder because a previous poster claimed our OL was simply not good.

This discussion evolved from the number of sacks that Taysom and Jameis took.

Is the offensive line really exceptionally good or did Brees just help make them look that way?
Winston got sacked twice in the half of football that he played against the 49ers. And he only made 10 pass attempts. It's a small sample size, but it's a rate greater than Taysom got sacked and speaks on the true quality of the offensive line.

All other things being equal though, a QB who can read and release quicker than another QB is going to be more favorable in terms of how well the OL is perceived to be playing and how well they are ranked.

The Saints OL has been ranked the 2nd best for the last two years because they produce a top 10 running game and give Brees enough time to go through all of his progressions. Brees' ability to read defenses, identify coverage and quickly unload the ball makes the OL's job easier but they run block better than 90% of the OL's in the NFL and give Brees plenty enough time to find holes in zones and quickly unload the ball. They are perceived to be playing well because they actually play well. They are highly ranked becaused they earned that ranking.

 

[BoxerJoe]

BoxerJoe said:
This discussion evolved from the number of sacks that Taysom and Jameis took.

The Saints OL has been ranked the 2nd best for the last two years because they produce a top 10 running game and give Brees enough time to go through all of his progressions. Brees' ability to read defenses, identify coverage and quickly unload the ball makes the OL's job easier but they run block better than 90% of the OL's in the NFL and give Brees plenty enough time to find holes in zones and quickly unload the ball. They are perceived to be playing well because they actually play well. They are highly ranked becaused they earned that ranking.

You are moving the goalposts from quarterbacks getting sacked to run blocking.

If the QB is good at pre-snap reads and getting rid of the ball quickly, that makes the OL better and gives them a better appearance and a better ranking. Change the QB to someone who isn't as good as in the previously stated example and the OL gives up more sacks and therefore doesn't look as good or rank as well. That much is elementary.

I'll say it again. The stats show that the OL gave Brees an average amount of time in pass protection this year - not an elite amount of time, not a good amount of time, but an average amount of time in comparison to the other OLs in the league. I know PFF isn't the end all be all to grading, but they back up what we already knew - the interior of the OL was not good in pass protection this year. Peat graded at 58.8, Easton at 46.6, and Ruiz at 43.5.

 

[Saintamaniac]

You are moving the goalposts from quarterbacks getting sacked to run blocking.

I'm not moving the goal posts at all. I'm saying what I've been saying from the start. The Saints offensive line has been ranked #2 overall for the last two seasons and it's not just because Brees gets rid of the ball quickly. I'm saying that Brees' stats more than say that he was a great QB...one of the best, if not the best, QB's of all time. I'm saying that it is not necessary to downplay the quality of the OL or WR's, as some including yourself seem to can't help but do, when referencing Brees.

 

[BoxerJoe]

I'm not moving the goal posts at all. I'm saying what I've been saying from the start. The Saints offensive line has been ranked #2 overall for the last two seasons and it's not just because Brees gets rid of the ball quickly. I'm saying that Brees' stats more than say that he was a great QB...one of the best, if not the best, QB's of all time. I'm saying that it is not necessary to downplay the quality of the OL or WR's, as some including yourself seem to can't help but do, when referencing Brees.

My only argument in this thread has been in relation to the QB getting sacked...nothing in regard to the run blocking. I can't help but downplay the quality of the OL? In what other thread have I ever downplayed the quality of the OL to any significant degree? You are white-knighting for them here as much as I am "downplaying" them. And is it really downplaying them when there are stats and PFF grades to support what I have been saying? I would bet that most fans think that the interior OL needs to perform better and are hoping that things will improve for next season after the OL (especially Ruiz) hopefully gets in a more normal type training camp.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Is the offensive line really exceptionally good or did Brees just help make them look that way?

It's a small sample size, but it's a rate greater than Taysom got sacked and speaks on the true quality of the offensive line.

The "time to throw" [stat] that the Saints OL gave Brees this past season was very middle of the pack.

a QB who can read and release quicker than another QB is going to be more favorable in terms of how well the OL is perceived to be playing

As a complete unit, this year's line was not up to snuff with the OLs of the past due to the interior portion of it.

Those are all your quotes concerning the OL. If you want to claim I'm sticking up for the OL then go ahead. I'm sticking up for the OL and WR from people either making false claims about the quality of the OL or the WR in an attempt to prop up Brees and I'm saying that it is not necessary to do so.

Baltimore had the highest ranked OL and it damn sure wasn't because Jackson made quick reads to make the appear to be better than they are. People who know a lot more about football than you or I feel that the Saints OL as a unit is a top 10 unit. Period end of story.

This team went 8-1 in the last two years without Brees under center and the OL played just fine. Why you feel the need to denigrate the OL, well...that's your issue. You took up the mantel despite the fact that I specifically stated that my comments weren't directed at you. So who's white-knighting for whom? I can point out Brees being an all-time great without taking a sheet on the OL but it seems you can't.

 

[Le_fleur_fan_78]

Taysom being sacked 14 times is unsettling, considering the fact N.O has a top 10 offensive line.

Makes you wonder if it's their play or Drew's quick decision making that has them there. Or maybe both.

 

[BoxerJoe]

Those are all your quotes concerning the OL. If you want to claim I'm sticking up for the OL then go ahead. I'm sticking up for the OL and WR from people either making false claims about the quality of the OL or the WR in an attempt to prop up Brees and I'm saying that it is not necessary to do so.

Baltimore had the highest ranked OL and it damn sure wasn't because Jackson made quick reads to make the appear to be better than they are. People who know a lot more about football than you or I feel that the Saints OL as a unit is a top 10 unit. Period end of story.

This team went 8-1 in the last two years without Brees under center and the OL played just fine. Why you feel the need to denigrate the OL, well...that's your issue. You took up the mantel despite the fact that I specifically stated that my comments weren't directed at you. So who's white-knighting for whom? I can point out Brees being an all-time great without taking a sheet on the OL but it seems you can't.

Yeah, those were my quotes and at no point did I mention run blocking. Yet, you needed to white knight so hard for the OL that you had to inject that (run blocking) directly into the discussion with me.

Nowhere did I say that the OL's pass-blocking success is determined solely by the QB. In fact, we have "time to throw" stats and PFF grades to show that the Saints OL (the interior, in particular) did not give Brees a generous amount of time to throw the ball. That is strictly on the OL and independent of a QB being quick to read and react. Period. End of factual story.

Why the need to try to squash talking about the OL's performance when discussing sacks? Everyone else knows that the two go hand in hand. Are you related to or do you have any special relationship to anyone on the Saints OL? I am just trying to figure out your unreasonable disdain for having them critiqued on a message board.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I'm not directing this at you @BoxerJoe but this seems to be a theme where fans denigrate our OL and WR's to bolster Brees.

Yeah, those were my quotes and at no point did I mention run blocking. Yet, you needed to white knight so hard for the OL that you had to inject that (run blocking) directly into the discussion with me.

I was never talking directly to you but if the shoe fits, wear it. You can continue to call it white knight or whatever but for some reason, the OL can't be good on it's own. No that's impossible. It has to be that Brees made the OL better than what it really was. The same people do the same thing to our WR's. You are coming across just like the others who have to denigrate other parts of the team to praise Brees and it's uncalled for.

 

[BoxerJoe]

I was never talking directly to you but if the shoe fits, wear it. You can continue to call it white knight or whatever but for some reason, the OL can't be good on it's own. No that's impossible. It has to be that Brees made the OL better than what it really was. The same people do the same thing to our WR's. You are coming across just like the others who have to denigrate other parts of the team to praise Brees and it's uncalled for.

You replied directly to me with more "run game" talk as our conversation continued. And how could the shoe fit when I have repeatedly told you that I am only talking about the OL here in relationship to QBs getting sacked?

Did you not fully read my last post? I specifically said that the OL's success is not solely judged on the QB and noted that on their own accord, the OL did not do a stellar job of giving Brees time to throw. Go back and look at the PFF pass blocking grades for Peat, Easton, & Ruiz that I posted. Now Armstead and Ramczyk on the other hand, they did great on their own. But if you don't think that there are QBs in the league who make others around them (including their OL) better, then you are too far gone with your white knight mentality.

It boggles my mind that you are still approaching this from a "denigrate others to praise Brees" mentality as if the performance of the OL should not be taken into account when discussing sacks taken by the QB. Was it not fair for people to point out Cincinnati's OL play when it came to how much Burrow got mauled? Sacks don't happen in a vacuum independently of the OL's performance.

 

[Saintamaniac]

You replied directly to me with more "run game" talk as our conversation continued. And how could the shoe fit when I have repeatedly told you that I am only talking about the OL here in relationship to QBs getting sacked?

Did you not fully read my last post? I specifically said that the OL's success is not solely judged on the QB and noted that on their own accord, the OL did not do a stellar job of giving Brees time to throw. Go back and look at the PFF pass blocking grades for Peat, Easton, & Ruiz that I posted. Now Armstead and Ramczyk on the other hand, they did great on their own. But if you don't think that there are QBs in the league who make others around them (including their OL) better, then you are too far gone with your white knight mentality.

It boggles my mind that you are still approaching this from a "denigrate others to praise Brees" mentality as if the performance of the OL should not be taken into account when discussing sacks taken by the QB. Was it not fair for people to point out Cincinnati's OL play when it came to how much Burrow got mauled? Sacks don't happen in a vacuum independently of the OL's performance.

You got it dude. You showed me.

 

[BoxerJoe]

You got it dude. You showed me.

Cool beans. Have a great rest of your day!