Another regional jet crash (4 Viewers)

[Bill]

Delta plane flips upside down after crash landing in Toronto

Emergency crews are responding to a crash involving a Delta Air Lines plane that arrived Monday at Toronto Pearson Airport from Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.

www.yahoo.com

I'm thinking that folks are going to start getting nervous about flying.

 

[Eeyore]

I fly March 19. Bring it on!

 

[Devildog]

Kudos to the crew and designers of the plane that no one was lost in this accident.

 

[efil4stnias]

Kudos to the crew and designers of the plane that no one was lost in this accident.

i just want to know how it ended upside down. i see a wing missing. Broke off on landing and the force on other wing simply lifted and turned it over?

crazy.

 

[town123]

Delta plane flips upside down after crash landing in Toronto

Emergency crews are responding to a crash involving a Delta Air Lines plane that arrived Monday at Toronto Pearson Airport from Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.

www.yahoo.com

I'm thinking that folks are going to start getting nervous about flying.

This is in my backyard. 9" of snow over the weekend and temps in the 15F range feels like 0F. Winds were silly, gusting 35-45 mph. You would think a plane coming from snowy Minn to almost as snowy Toronto would be fine. Guess we'll have to wait for the investigation results.

 

[Sailorsaint]

Delta plane flips upside down after crash landing in Toronto

Emergency crews are responding to a crash involving a Delta Air Lines plane that arrived Monday at Toronto Pearson Airport from Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.

www.yahoo.com

I'm thinking that folks are going to start getting nervous about flying.

I flew a lot, a lot, when I was in the Navy. Towards the end, you would think I had gotten used to it but, I just felt like I was pushing my luck everytime I boarded a plane. I have never even flown as a civilian in my life, only when in the Navy.

 

[0rion]

I fly March 19. Bring it on!

I'm feeling like normally I'd laugh at this but these days.....not sure I'd do that

 

[Bill]

I wonder what part the snow played in keeping this aircraft from being fully engulfed in flames after it flipped and the wings were sheared off. The lack of a catastrophic post-crash fire is what prevented this incident from taking many lives. Most commercial jets land with about 45 mins of fuel remaining onboard. When skidding down a runway, you want to be as far away from the fuel as possible. Whatever fire ensued, it was both isolated and quickly contained.

 

[Sailorsaint]

I wonder what part the snow played in keeping this aircraft from being fully engulfed in flames after it flipped and the wings were sheared off. The lack of a catastrophic post-crash fire is what prevented this incident from taking many lives. Most commercial jets land with about 45 mins of fuel remaining onboard. When skidding down a runway, you want to be as far away from the fuel as possible. Whatever fire ensued, it was both isolated and quickly contained.

Isn't fuel stored in the wings? Maybe that had something to do with it?

 

[Merl]

Isn't fuel stored in the wings? Maybe that had something to do with it?

On most airplanes the main tanks are in the wings.

 

[Bill]

Isn't fuel stored in the wings? Maybe that had something to do with it?

Yes, on the smaller regional jets especially. The larger commercial jets do have some center tanks in the fuselage. So I'm sure that the separation of the wings from the fuselage played a role in keeping the passengers and crew away from a potential inferno.

But it seems like the inertia of all the parts coming off the plane would have had these parts skidding together down (or just off of) the runway. Though I haven't seen a lot of video of this incident, there didn't appear to be a large post-crash fire anywhere around the scene. It would have been almost miraculous for the wings to be torn away from the fuselage without some fuel escaping as these sections careened to a stop.

Since the wing spars are the 'heftiest' part of the aircraft, to have them sheer off so cleanly without rupturing the tanks is pretty amazing to me. I can only assume that the ice & snow at the time of the crash somehow prevented a greater catastrophe. Or... perhaps there was a large fire that wasn't near the crew & passenger sections and wasn't evident from the photos that were published of the crash. The only video shown on the news was taken by some passengers who had just exited from the wreckage, and there didn't appear to be a major fire in the area.

My first assumption is that the aircraft flipped after initially touching down on the runway but then rolling over onto the grassy area alongside the runway (which are not cleared of snow like the runways would be) thus keeping the broken sections from grinding down the length of the concrete. That would have been like striking a match many times over. Survivability of such low speed crashes/accidents is directly proportionate to how much fire is involved. In this case there appears to have been relatively little, which attributed to most of the people being able to walk away. And that is wonderful news!

 

[Bill]

i just want to know how it ended upside down. i see a wing missing. Broke off on landing and the force on other wing simply lifted and turned it over?

crazy.

For any pilot who is landing an airplane, the goal is to have the wings producing lift right to the moment that the weight of the aircraft settles onto the landing gear. After that moment you want no more lift from the wings. That is why they design spoilers on the top of the wings. Immediately after landing you will notice the pilot activate the spoilers (flap-like panels that pop up to disrupt airflow over the top of the wings) thus keeping the wings from producing lift.

Airspeed management is especially critical during landing approaches. When transitioning from cruising speed to landing speed the configuration of the aircraft changes greatly as the airspeed bleeds off during the approach using things like flaps, landing gear, engine power, and adjustments in the pitch axis. Ideally you want the wheels to touchdown just above the the speed where the wings would stall (ie, stop producing lift). Then as the friction with the ground reduces the airspeed further (along with the spoilers used on complex aircraft) it becomes extremely unlikely that the wings could produce enough lift for the aircraft to become airborne once again.

The problem with landing in extreme gusty winds is how it affect the pilot's airspeed management. The amount of lift being produced changes many times, just seconds apart. Thus the pilot will increase the approach speed slightly to maintain a higher margin of controllability. But any extra airspeed that you are carrying as you bring the main landing gear to the surface must be reduced as quickly as possible because the wings are still producing enough lift for the aircraft to fly.

From what I gathered from the initial information, the RJ was landing into a right quartering headwind (not unusual by any means). But due to the gusty conditions the right wing would have been experiencing rapidly changing relative wind across the wing surfaces including the flaps. If you assume the pilot was approaching at a slightly higher (faster) landing speed (for the controllability factor) and couple that with the possibility that a wind gust across the right wing (the wing most affected by the crosswind), then it's very likely that a gust in the 40-50mph range could have produced enough lift as they touched down to roll the airplane severely to the left.

Naturally the first thing to impact the ground at that moment would have been the left wing. And with the roll being so violent, it would have sheered that wing near the fuselage inducing and even faster roll from the right wing which would have (likely) had its flaps fully deployed thus producing the greatest lift. Once it rolled past 180°, the right wing would have hit the ground sharply and created a similar shearing of that wing.

Of course this is just early guesswork based on some known landing procedures. But it is also possible that the airplane could have been approaching at a critically low airspeed and made it more susceptible to controllability issues when it encountered sudden strong gusty winds right near the surface of the runway. But either way it appears that the wings sheared due to a violent roll on or near the surface of the runway.

To me it seems inevitable that the gusty weather conditions will be a factor in the loss of control by the pilots. And if so, the issue of airspeed management will be thoroughly investigated. The 'black box' will give all the details of how that approach was managed in those weather conditions. It will be interesting to learn what the NTSB discovers from this investigation.

 

[DaveXA]

For any pilot who is landing an airplane, the goal is to have the wings producing lift right to the moment that the weight of the aircraft settles onto the landing gear. After that moment you want no more lift from the wings. That is why they design spoilers on the top of the wings. Immediately after landing you will notice the pilot activate the spoilers (flap-like panels that pop up to disrupt airflow over the top of the wings) thus keeping the wings from producing lift.

Airspeed management is especially critical during landing approaches. When transitioning from cruising speed to landing speed the configuration of the aircraft changes greatly as the airspeed bleeds off during the approach using things like flaps, landing gear, engine power, and adjustments in the pitch axis. Ideally you want the wheels to touchdown just above the the speed where the wings would stall (ie, stop producing lift). Then as the friction with the ground reduces the airspeed further (along with the spoilers used on complex aircraft) it becomes extremely unlikely that the wings could produce enough lift for the aircraft to become airborne once again.

The problem with landing in extreme gusty winds is how it affect the pilot's airspeed management. The amount of lift being produced changes many times, just seconds apart. Thus the pilot will increase the approach speed slightly to maintain a higher margin of controllability. But any extra airspeed that you are carrying as you bring the main landing gear to the surface must be reduced as quickly as possible because the wings are still producing enough lift for the aircraft to fly.

From what I gathered from the initial information, the RJ was landing into a right quartering headwind (not unusual by any means). But due to the gusty conditions the right wing would have been experiencing rapidly changing relative wind across the wing surfaces including the flaps. If you assume the pilot was approaching at a slightly higher (faster) landing speed (for the controllability factor) and couple that with the possibility that a wind gust across the right wing (the wing most affected by the crosswind), then it's very likely that a gust in the 40-50mph range could have produced enough lift as they touched down to roll the airplane severely to the left.

Naturally the first thing to impact the ground at that moment would have been the left wing. And with the roll being so violent, it would have sheered that wing near the fuselage inducing and even faster roll from the right wing which would have (likely) had its flaps fully deployed thus producing the greatest lift. Once it rolled past 180°, the right wing would have hit the ground sharply and created a similar shearing of that wing.

Of course this is just early guesswork based on some known landing procedures. But it is also possible that the airplane could have been approaching at a critically low airspeed and made it more susceptible to controllability issues when it encountered sudden strong gusty winds right near the surface of the runway. But either way it appears that the wings sheared due to a violent roll on or near the surface of the runway.

To me it seems inevitable that the gusty weather conditions will be a factor in the loss of control by the pilots. And if so, the issue of airspeed management will be thoroughly investigated. The 'black box' will give all the details of how that approach was managed in those weather conditions. It will be interesting to learn what the NTSB discovers from this investigation.

I saw a grainy video of the crash and there was a brief fireball at the wings that I guess quickly burned through the remaining fuel and burned itself out. Thankfully didn't reach the cabin. Just wild that a plane flips like that and the fuselage doesn't break in half or kill anyone. About the best outcome possible here.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

For any pilot who is landing an airplane, the goal is to have the wings producing lift right to the moment that the weight of the aircraft settles onto the landing gear. After that moment you want no more lift from the wings. That is why they design spoilers on the top of the wings. Immediately after landing you will notice the pilot activate the spoilers (flap-like panels that pop up to disrupt airflow over the top of the wings) thus keeping the wings from producing lift.

Airspeed management is especially critical during landing approaches. When transitioning from cruising speed to landing speed the configuration of the aircraft changes greatly as the airspeed bleeds off during the approach using things like flaps, landing gear, engine power, and adjustments in the pitch axis. Ideally you want the wheels to touchdown just above the the speed where the wings would stall (ie, stop producing lift). Then as the friction with the ground reduces the airspeed further (along with the spoilers used on complex aircraft) it becomes extremely unlikely that the wings could produce enough lift for the aircraft to become airborne once again.

The problem with landing in extreme gusty winds is how it affect the pilot's airspeed management. The amount of lift being produced changes many times, just seconds apart. Thus the pilot will increase the approach speed slightly to maintain a higher margin of controllability. But any extra airspeed that you are carrying as you bring the main landing gear to the surface must be reduced as quickly as possible because the wings are still producing enough lift for the aircraft to fly.

From what I gathered from the initial information, the RJ was landing into a right quartering headwind (not unusual by any means). But due to the gusty conditions the right wing would have been experiencing rapidly changing relative wind across the wing surfaces including the flaps. If you assume the pilot was approaching at a slightly higher (faster) landing speed (for the controllability factor) and couple that with the possibility that a wind gust across the right wing (the wing most affected by the crosswind), then it's very likely that a gust in the 40-50mph range could have produced enough lift as they touched down to roll the airplane severely to the left.

Naturally the first thing to impact the ground at that moment would have been the left wing. And with the roll being so violent, it would have sheered that wing near the fuselage inducing and even faster roll from the right wing which would have (likely) had its flaps fully deployed thus producing the greatest lift. Once it rolled past 180°, the right wing would have hit the ground sharply and created a similar shearing of that wing.

Of course this is just early guesswork based on some known landing procedures. But it is also possible that the airplane could have been approaching at a critically low airspeed and made it more susceptible to controllability issues when it encountered sudden strong gusty winds right near the surface of the runway. But either way it appears that the wings sheared due to a violent roll on or near the surface of the runway.

To me it seems inevitable that the gusty weather conditions will be a factor in the loss of control by the pilots. And if so, the issue of airspeed management will be thoroughly investigated. The 'black box' will give all the details of how that approach was managed in those weather conditions. It will be interesting to learn what the NTSB discovers from this investigation.

^^ obviously

 

[0rion]

That video to me looked like they landed hard. I would also wager the snow helped keep sparks at a minimum. Lots of things had to go right for those people to live. I'd rather be lucky than good.