Another regional jet crash (4 Viewers)

[zeetes]

looks like a crj. good to know the bunch of those i've been on are safe for flippage.

 

[Paul]

For any pilot who is landing an airplane, the goal is to have the wings producing lift right to the moment that the weight of the aircraft settles onto the landing gear. After that moment you want no more lift from the wings. That is why they design spoilers on the top of the wings. Immediately after landing you will notice the pilot activate the spoilers (flap-like panels that pop up to disrupt airflow over the top of the wings) thus keeping the wings from producing lift.

Airspeed management is especially critical during landing approaches. When transitioning from cruising speed to landing speed the configuration of the aircraft changes greatly as the airspeed bleeds off during the approach using things like flaps, landing gear, engine power, and adjustments in the pitch axis. Ideally you want the wheels to touchdown just above the the speed where the wings would stall (ie, stop producing lift). Then as the friction with the ground reduces the airspeed further (along with the spoilers used on complex aircraft) it becomes extremely unlikely that the wings could produce enough lift for the aircraft to become airborne once again.

The problem with landing in extreme gusty winds is how it affect the pilot's airspeed management. The amount of lift being produced changes many times, just seconds apart. Thus the pilot will increase the approach speed slightly to maintain a higher margin of controllability. But any extra airspeed that you are carrying as you bring the main landing gear to the surface must be reduced as quickly as possible because the wings are still producing enough lift for the aircraft to fly.

From what I gathered from the initial information, the RJ was landing into a right quartering headwind (not unusual by any means). But due to the gusty conditions the right wing would have been experiencing rapidly changing relative wind across the wing surfaces including the flaps. If you assume the pilot was approaching at a slightly higher (faster) landing speed (for the controllability factor) and couple that with the possibility that a wind gust across the right wing (the wing most affected by the crosswind), then it's very likely that a gust in the 40-50mph range could have produced enough lift as they touched down to roll the airplane severely to the left.

Naturally the first thing to impact the ground at that moment would have been the left wing. And with the roll being so violent, it would have sheered that wing near the fuselage inducing and even faster roll from the right wing which would have (likely) had its flaps fully deployed thus producing the greatest lift. Once it rolled past 180°, the right wing would have hit the ground sharply and created a similar shearing of that wing.

Of course this is just early guesswork based on some known landing procedures. But it is also possible that the airplane could have been approaching at a critically low airspeed and made it more susceptible to controllability issues when it encountered sudden strong gusty winds right near the surface of the runway. But either way it appears that the wings sheared due to a violent roll on or near the surface of the runway.

To me it seems inevitable that the gusty weather conditions will be a factor in the loss of control by the pilots. And if so, the issue of airspeed management will be thoroughly investigated. The 'black box' will give all the details of how that approach was managed in those weather conditions. It will be interesting to learn what the NTSB discovers from this investigation.

The amount of knowledge that you all exhibit on this site never ceases to amaze me. Thanks Bill!

 

[Sailorsaint]

The amount of knowledge that you all exhibit on this site never ceases to amaze me. Thanks Bill!

Matched only by the amount of sarcasm and snarkiness.

 

[Paul]

Matched only by the amount of sarcasm and snarkiness.

Well, I mean, yeah.

 

[Bill]

I saw a grainy video of the crash and there was a brief fireball at the wings that I guess quickly burned through the remaining fuel and burned itself out. Thankfully didn't reach the cabin. Just wild that a plane flips like that and the fuselage doesn't break in half or kill anyone. About the best outcome possible here.

Interestingly I did see a few more videos after my post that documented some significant fire near the fuselage on the opposite side from where the passengers were exiting the aircraft. Evidently the fire & rescue crews were on that scene almost immediately and were hosing down not only that area where fuel was burning, but they also continued to douse the fuselage itself where there were clearly some parts/sections that were burning right through the time when all the passengers (that could exit on their own) were leaving the scene.

That immediate response definitely played a role in keeping the passenger compartment intact and free from what could have been a suffocating and consuming blaze. The fortunate part is that this section of the aircraft wasn't already engulfed when the emergency vehicles arrived. It certainly could have been much worse.

 

[Bill]

The latest videos (posted on TMZ) show a completely different explanation than what might have appeared to be a wind-forced roll over. In these exclusive videos ( https://www.tmz.com/2025/02/18/delta-toronto-plane-crash-up-close-video/ ) the airplane clearly was involved in a hard landing that appears to have collapsed the right main landing gear resulting in the right wing impacting the ground from the high rate of descent. This impact broke the right wing spar at the root and induced a hard roll to the right where the left wing inevitably impacted the ground tearing it from the fuselage at the root area of the wing.

Now the NTSB will be looking into the reason for the extreme rate of descent and whether the gusty weather had anything to do with an inability to maintain a proper descent angle to the runway. To me, the aircraft seems to be a bit high on approach and the pilot may have been trying to force the aircraft to the runway to avoid having to execute a go-around procedure. After viewing that video, this is starting to look more like a 'pilot error' type of situation. How sad.

 

[Madmarsha]

I saw a grainy video of the crash and there was a brief fireball at the wings that I guess quickly burned through the remaining fuel and burned itself out. Thankfully didn't reach the cabin. Just wild that a plane flips like that and the fuselage doesn't break in half or kill anyone. About the best outcome possible here.

Except for the part where all of the sudden you're hanging upside down in your seatbelt.

Just kidding. This was a "miracle". But I just can't stop thinking about being upside down.

 

[DaveXA]

The latest videos (posted on TMZ) show a completely different explanation than what might have appeared to be a wind-forced roll over. In these exclusive videos ( https://www.tmz.com/2025/02/18/delta-toronto-plane-crash-up-close-video/ ) the airplane clearly was involved in a hard landing that appears to have collapsed the right main landing gear resulting in the right wing impacting the ground from the high rate of descent. This impact broke the right wing spar at the root and induced a hard roll to the right where the left wing inevitably impacted the ground tearing it from the fuselage at the root area of the wing.

Now the NTSB will be looking into the reason for the extreme rate of descent and whether the gusty weather had anything to do with an inability to maintain a proper descent angle to the runway. To me, the aircraft seems to be a bit high on approach and the pilot may have been trying to force the aircraft to the runway to avoid having to execute a go-around procedure. After viewing that video, this is starting to look more like a 'pilot error' type of situation. How sad.

I would have guessed severe wind shear. But I'm no expert.

 

[DaveXA]

Except for the part where all of the sudden you're hanging upside down in your seatbelt.

Just kidding. This was a "miracle". But I just can't stop thinking about being upside down.

Indeed. That's just so wild. At least upside down, you don't have to drop far to land on the luggage compartments.

 

[Bill]

I would have guessed severe wind shear. But I'm no expert.

While marginally possible, there wasn't any reported wind shear or microbursts in the area.

When I see the still photo taken from a video that is being recorded by an aircraft waiting short of the active runway, it appears (to me) that the approach is very flat rather than with a slight 'nose-up' attitude. This might indicate that the pilot was attempting to descend quickly to avoid running out of runway or to keep from having to execute a go-around procedure. In the video the point of impact with the runway was at a very high sink rate without a lot of flaring (raising of the nose) as it hit the ground.

Perhaps the pilot had made hard landings like that in the past or maybe the right main gear was at a point of immanent failure. Either way that aircraft should never have purposely been subjected to that kind of a load on landing. Once the gear collapsed and the right wing slapped the ground at that high descent rate, the story was going to be a bad one. If this pilot was simply trying to force a high speed landing from a bad approach angle, he probably not going to receive any Captain Sullenberger awards for his piloting skills.

 

[Bill]

Indeed. That's just so wild. At least upside down, you don't have to drop far to land on the luggage compartments.

Especially within the confines of a skinny regional jet fuselage.

 

[saintmdterps]

I saw a grainy video of the crash and there was a brief fireball at the wings that I guess quickly burned through the remaining fuel and burned itself out. Thankfully didn't reach the cabin. Just wild that a plane flips like that and the fuselage doesn't break in half or kill anyone. About the best outcome possible here.

I wonder how this stacks up against landing in the Hudson River? Both are miracles IMHO.

A friend of mine is a pilot and flew a plane similar to the Airbus A320. Mike said if he had been the pilot everyone would have been dead, as would be the case with ohh about 99.9% of other pilots. Right pilot at the right time = none dead.

 

[DaveXA]

Here's first person pov of people getting out of the plane. Wild.